https://twitter.com/0xMert_/status/1737479939622875433/photo/2 people pitching public ledgers as a feature "Cash is untraceable, blockchains are public ledgers" it's cool seeing that feature to challenge fake news being weaponised do u mean community comments i think it's a good addition to twitter yeah lol but it was added for fact checking "fact checking" is just soft censorship & narrative enforcement unfortunately. wish it were actually true but the whole industry of "fact checking researchers" is just BS what do you think of the darkfi telegram discussion about having moderation? quite a lot of people saying having some gentle touch moderation would be beneficial... but it just seems so against the ethos of the project if we start doing that one of the guys mentioned having people reporting spam and if it happens enough, then the bot will censor them there could be variants of this like giving them an algebra puzzle to solve, or cooling off time idk just so meh having to censor freedom of speech... for a free speech platform what are all of your's thoughts? although a good counter is that telegram doesnt filter people you've blocked in groups thats messed up https://odysee.com/@SurvivetheJive:c/odin-rituals-in-the-19th-century:2 turns out bringing a tree into your house is a pagan worship did u know cromwell banned xmas for being too pagan https://www.nationalgeographic.com/premium/article/christmas-ban-england-puritans-cromwell hanging stuff on the tree = hanging sacrifices like criminals being hung re: Telegram moderation: good idea to have anti-bot/spam tool like requiring proof of human/captcha-type checks that don't actually prevent speech... but IMO dangerous to free speech to start actually globally blocking human speech. If people don't like a particular user's speech, they can choose to mute/block that user. For instance there is someone on there who takes every chance to monologue about the evils of a particular religion, which can be offensive to some. For those people, personally muting/blocking that user is more in line with anarchist principles rather than prventing him being heard by everyone simply because some/many may find it distasteful Also global bans/blocks are illogical. If I don't like someone's speech, I can personally mute/block them and it solves my problem immediately. Global bans/blocks not only solve my personal problem, but they make choices for the whole group, many of whom may not agree with my position at all. It is inherently authoritarian unfortunately on telegram you can't blocking someone doesn't mute them in the channel that's the main controversy sounds like a new feature is needed in telegram then. if i block a user, i should just see a chat from them appear as [this post is from a blocked user] after a quick skim in their gh they already have bugs like this one I{ totally agree with hamletmachine we are free speech absolutists, we don't censor anything, and fuck anyone that wants to to me this is a specific app/client issue, not how we should run the group +1000000 https://github.com/telegramdesktop/tdesktop/issues/26940 relevant issue perhaps after holiday break I will dive into their repo to "fix" this great thanks both for the opinions, makes sense good convos in telegram https://stackoverflow.blog/2023/12/25/is-software-getting-worse/?cb=1 I like how there's a philosophy section on the site, acting as a guide for why this is all worth pursuing (decentralisation, state sanctioned violence etc) Ayn Rand was my first introduction to a lot of these ideas come for the philosophy, stay for the tech lol literally me, I Like that phrase though but it's also refreshing to hear the word 'philosophy' used in tech, a lot of mainstream tech, corporations are totally alien to the word, especially my work place https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdgnu8XPdvo Title: Videodrome (1983) - "Why do it for real?" - YouTube nice clip hello hi dada oh it's works ! i have many logs ... i am not good whithe this tech so i havent sure i'm connected you are connected i'm not good in english too... you can always test by running !test oh haha !hackersays “It is the user who should parameterize procedures, not their creators.” — Alan J. Perlis 15[Quote #fcb81b] !test !hackersays “C is quirky, flawed and an enormous success.” — Dennis Ritchie 15[Quote #717bef] i introduce me , i am french and i see the evlolution os State control, intensifyin on new technologies. i see the suveillance of individuals increasing and the freedom disappear bienvenue dada un français !! :) yes, definitely all forms of state control and surveillance are increasing haha yes, although I know a little bit of French from school so not only french speak french :) yes, je viens d'Australie moi aussi je parle francais et je suis meme pas francaise c'est plus agreable en francais pour moi mais je pense que ce sera lourd pour vous non ca va :) il y a les vrais francaise dans ce communite aussi nous pouvons également utiliser google translate personellement je découvre l'anarchie depuis peu et l'agorisme depuis encore moins de temps je voudrai en apprendre plus , j'ai remarquer que l'agorisme rencontrai une certaine mefiance et je ne comprend pas vraiment pourquoi ross ulbricht etait agorist je suppose que comme l'anarchisme, l'agorisme est associe a une attitude negative alors qu'il s'agit en fait de créer de nouveaux mondes *associé j'entend souvent la critique de l'agorisme comme étant un capitalisme déguisé alors que pour lce que je crois en comprendre c'est un mode de gestion en communauté qui apparament n'est pas opposéà l'anarchisme comme peu l'être le capitalisme <3 there are a lot of self-labeled philosophers and thinkers in the crypto world. curious: are there funding platforms for people to write about the space? like could a scifi author solicit funding to write up dream worlds of what's possible? or ways to raise funding to hire an "established" scholar or author to look at specific issues with a cypherpunk perspective? i'd say something like this could be funded by gitcoin AXXI (agorist.xyz) also plans to become profitable via the selling of books, and circle those profits into paying writers etc darkfi community also wants to make an agorist scifi a sort of think tank, i guess. but a serious one with a mission. there is so much fluff out there. we need short, distilled, brave, imaginative ideas written in the genre of a journalist in war. something that puts important ideas in your hand immediately, rather than dance around in a postmodern aestheticization. like a foss philosophy genre. yeah i should check out gitcoin. i've skimmed it a few times but it doesn't seem to populated by revolutionary thinkers yeah i'm familiar with axxi. good stuff. it's a first step but there needs to be a full intellectual infrastructure -- journals, newspapers, forums, universities, etc agorist scifi sounds great. wld be curious to hear more abt that like we could fund a top geopolitics expert and culture expert to identify places in the world that are ripe for the growth of the dark forest then bring the hacker cavalry to do focused work there there needs to be a dao case study journal too. my understanding is that there was an initial wave of failures and people sorta fled from them in shame -- there needs to be public post-mortems so we can gain insight and iterate on them ++ on all points hello i always in test with weechat, it's funny miagi: it's a lot of hard work to do all that stuff... issue is as always manpower. few ppl willing to step up this project is a modest effort to provide the infra and economic network for that stuff miagi: regarding geopolitics, they did most influental geoanalysts list on Voltaire Network Robert Kaplan, Pepe Escobar etc. But it is rare to find such an expert to be forward looking with tech in mind. for give an help a great understanding is necessary (and i m only in begining), at what level is it possible to help with what knowledge ? dada: in 20 mins we have dev meet in #dev and look at: https://darkrenaissance.github.io/darkfi/dev/contrib/contrib.html Title: The DarkFi Book ok i'm in and i go see the contrib page antikythera: is there a forum or place where people interested in doing this work can get together? i met a bunch of agorists in the monero community, practicing agorism in the wild the other big one is hacker linux communities like cyberia/ 2f30.org (altho not sure they actually do anything besides larp) then there's agorist.xyz and associated community we have a philosophy group on signal miagi: if you wanted to help out with journal stuff we'd appreciate that journal=agorism journal another good agorist community are the Freedom Cells... they do an annual event called the Greater Reset which is 5 days of different solutions to the whole WEF globalist anti-human plan... Parazyd spoke at it last year about DarkFi during the tech day https://thegreaterreset.org/ Title: The Greater Reset 5 - January 17th-21st, 2024 - The Greater Reset 5: January 17-21st, 2024 hamletmachine: wow, didn't know about that one, nice will make sure to watch the live stream its a solid community. instead of sitting around complaining about all the BS happening in the world, they are just focused on solutions so we can survive & thrive regardless. Tech is a big piece but they spend more time talking about physical/mental health, farming/food independence, sovereign economics/parallel networks (agorism) etc that's so cool reborn: can you dm me 2xGFDfSQoCdRTHdBBFEKV3E9yZXjrQ6GMNfZDYwradFX hamletmachine: cool ty reborn: pls try again if you already tried. my config.toml was fugged up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_Nine Title: Planet Nine - Wikipedia ^ i heard from an astrophysicist this is pretty close to confirmed "this hypothetical super-Earth-sized planet would have had a predicted mass of five to ten times that of the Earth, and an elongated orbit 400 to 800 times farther from the Sun than the Earth is." skull of a 5 year old neanderthal infant: https://ychef.files.bbci.co.uk/1024x1280/p09nm5h5.webp another one: https://humanorigins.si.edu/sites/default/files/styles/full_width/public/images/landscape/NeanderthalChild_Dederiyeh2_skull_CC_3qtr_r_l.jpg.webp https://agorism.dev/uploads/alex-the-genius-parrot.webm https://ecency.com/politics/@livingfreedom/anarchozionism-by-samuel-edward-konkin Title: 'Anarchozionism' by Samuel Edward Konkin III desci apps on darkfi can be cool perhaps? in desci, anonymity is super important, because an idea should be judged for its value, not for who shares it ++ right now, there's this big problem where the messenger is given more importance than the message such that a message would be evaluated on the basis of the messenger in the context of science, and other areas, but if we focus science here, the messenger is totally irrelevant what matters is the message whether the messenger has no education, 10 phds, etc, if the message is good, it is good just like someone who is looking for gold, what matters is that the gold is real, who brought the gold is irrelevant for the honest seeker isn't science peer review anonymous? one of science's big problems is its funding - funding agencies are captured by dull, nihilistic bureaucrats https://www.resilience.org/stories/2024-02-01/beyond-and-against-homogenisation-advancing-diversity-through-democratic-confederalism/ Title: 403 Forbidden oh very nice article expected to see some lefty pro-refugee fluff piece https://kolektiva.media/w/sq5RiB53yMnwpd2Zdgv4Vz Title: Conference Sociology of Freedom in Rojava: Interview with Heval Fuad from the Youth Revolutionary Movement - kolektiva.media https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/03/facebook-meta-silicon-valley-politics/677168/ Title: The Rise of Techno-authoritarianism - The Atlantic funny how it links futurism with fascism but not communism https://www.societyforasianart.org/sites/default/files/manifesto_futurista.pdf ^ 1909 by a fascist poet but for sure communism has its own form of futurism as well yeah not saying it didnt have links, but it had so equally with communism the era was futurist and revolutionary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurism Title: Futurism - Wikipedia Futurism (capital F) as a movement was fascist tho https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Futurism Title: Russian Futurism - Wikipedia oh i didn't know interesting from the section on declice of soviet futurism: "Communist Party made it clear they did not want any futurist influence in Soviet literature" this was influential on communists tho ("communism in space"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cosmism Title: Russian cosmism - Wikipedia haumea: present https://www.marxist.com/leon-trotsky-on-futurism.htm Title: Leon Trotsky on Futurism | Art | History & Theory https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1755734526678925682 https://thewritetoroam.com/2024/02/how-to-write-stuff-no-one-else-can Title: Not Acceptable! draoi: https://www.infoworld.com/article/3712783/an-interview-with-martin-hellman.html Title: Martin Hellman: We’re playing Russian roulette | InfoWorld relevant to your article "Until I read your book, I saw the National Security Agency as bad and Diffie-Hellman as good, plain and simple. You describe how you came to see the NSA and its people as sincere actors rather than as a cynical cabal bent on repression. What changed your perspective?" : https://dark.fi/insights/memetic-warfare.html : Title: Memetic warfare Title: Memetic warfare https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgJKaP0Sj5U Title: Killer T cell attacking cancer - YouTube https://www.africanhistoryextra.com/p/the-complete-history-of-gondar-africas Title: The complete history of Gondar: Africa's city of castles (1636-1900) https://www.sapiens.org/archaeology/neanderthal-art-paleolithic-archaeology/ Title: What’s Behind the Evolution of Neanderthal Portraits – SAPIENS https://aeon.co/essays/the-strange-and-turbulent-global-world-of-ant-geopolitics Title: The strange and turbulent global world of ant geopolitics | Aeon Essays "there are roughly 200,000 times more ants on our planet than the 100 billion stars in the Milky Way." wtf 20 quadrillion ants lmao ant planet > Ants, however, operate differently by forming what the ecologist Mark Moffett calls ‘anonymous societies’ in which individuals from the same species or group can be expected to accept and cooperate with each other even when they have never met before. What these societies depend on, Moffett writes, are ‘shared cues recognised by all its members’. lmao ant DAO reminds me of this chat where identity is de-emphasized and instead the concrete specifics take center stage similar to IRC in general or 4chan except instead of chemical badges, we use signs "cypherpunks write code" similar ethos sick would be nice if humans in general were more cooperative instead of working against each other https://satyagraha.wordpress.com/2010/08/19/pitirim-sorkin-crisis-of-modernity/ Title: Culture in Crisis: The Visionary Theories of Pitirim Sorokin | Satyagraha in ideational ages, the cultural works were not attributed to authors cathedrals built over multiple generations sensate ages such as (neo-)modernity are associated with celebrity and the cult of self in some sense communism was a desire to revive earlier notions of community there is hope > Invasive ants are prone to population crashes for reasons that aren’t understood > [a] potential issue is that the ants’ lack of discrimination about whom they help may also favour the evolution of free-riding ‘lazy workers’ in colonies, who selfishly prosper by exploiting their nest mates’ efforts. > it’s assumed this uneven distribution of work may eventually lead to social breakdown > insects are like Rorschach tests. Some people see his research as evidence that we should all get along, while others see the case for racial purity. Argentine ants kill 9/10ths of their queens every spring we can learn from the ants XD ofc the cuck article says: > seemingly clearing out the old to make way for the new – is enough to deter parallels between ant societies and human politics? imagine if political campaigns were deadly and bad leaders were executed after their term https://satyagraha.wordpress.com/2021/06/30/sorokin-altruism/ Title: Pitirim Sorokin: Techniques for the Altruistic Transformation of Individuals and Society | Satyagraha "Under the rubric of “Idealism” Sorokin understood the broad Platonic view of the unity of the True, the Good, and the Beautiful." i didn't realize the "true, good and beautiful" was a platonic thing nietzsche rages against plato/ the trinity pretty hard in will to power basically he sees conventional christian morality as slave-like and life-denying (platonism as preserved in christianity) he says plato's distinction between appearance and reality is literally upside down does that refer to the platonic ideal? so reality -> appearance > Sorokin: "A masterpiece of painting or sculpture, the Parthenon or a great cathedral, uplifts us in the realm of creative spirit more efficiently than a statistical diagram, mathematical formula, or a chain of impeccable syllogisms can do." what a load of bullshit i wonder what he would say about 3blue1brown i like this quote from nietzche: "An artist cannot bear reality, he turns away from it, his sincere opinion is that the worth of a thing consists in that dim impression of it which one derives from colour, form, sound and thought, believing that the more rarefied, diffuse and vaporous things or men become, the more valuable they become: the less real they are, the greater their worth. This is Platonism; and it boldly reverses yet another thing – for Plato measured the degree of reality by the degree of value, saying: the more ‘idea’ there is, the more being. He turned the concept ‘reality’ round and said: ‘What you believe to be real is an error, and the nearer we come to the “idea” [the nearer] we are to “truth”.’ Is this understood? It was the greatest of all rebaptisms; and because Christianity adopted it, we fail to see how striking it is. Essentially, Plato, like the artist he was, preferred appearance to being; and thus falsehood and fiction to truth, the unreal to the real – so convinced was he of the value of the appearance that he attributed to it ‘being’, ‘causality’, ‘goodness’, truth and everything else we value." ic, valuing reality for how closely it embodies the abstraction ++ brawndo: https://docs.emailengine.app/how-i-turned-my-open-source-project-into/ Title: How I turned my open-source project into a business released under MIT but got exploited eventually goes full proprietary lol kek https://www.gravatar.com/avatar/0bc4849da2f3ad66fe4d3fa53a3d45f2?s=250&d=mm&r=x soyjak fat soyjak normie https://phys.org/news/2024-02-neanderthals-usage-complex-adhesives-reveals.html https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/feb/27/microplastics-found-every-human-placenta-tested-study-health-impact Title: Microplastics found in every human placenta tested in study | Plastics | The Guardian :// fucked up I need to stop drinking that bottled mineral water lol some people use water filters but I don't trust them, god knows what chemicals they use in there, maybe there is a good drinking water filter system but i'm not aware of buy glass bottles? or drink from the tap where available yup unless you're in India... :) that's why "where available" distill your water store it in copper avoid tap where possible and plastic bottles copper structures the water distillation removes impurities speak positive affirmations to the water before drinking or atleast think them could also go to a creek or aquafir and bottle up some of that water in glass artesian wells sabadi: when distilling it also removes all good minerals (like found in artesian water)... when you store distilled in copper do you add minerals? sabado: " I take pinches of salt thru the day I get minerals in my food thru the day as well a very nice salt, can not remember specific, but something like himalayan one of my friends adds minerals to his distilled water thank you for mentioning that thanks for the water reminder, i focus on quality of water but not as much container its coming in. way too many plastics, even buying distilled or artesian in large quantities comes in big plastic containers :/ we can add to a copper bottle but if it first showed up in a big plastic jug, the harm is already done makes me long to be back in Wien, Austria where the tapwater is the freshest in the world and there are fountains all over the city to refill from https://old.reddit.com/r/Netsphere/comments/131mgfj/will_blame_ever_get_another_anime_adaption_or/#jy2xtia Title: Too Many Requests https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/02/world/brain-computer-organoids-scn/index.html Title: Move over, artificial intelligence. Scientists announce a new ‘organoid intelligence’ field | CNN https://www.openculture.com/2024/02/how-french-artists-in-1899-envisioned-what-life-would-look-like-in-the-year-2000.html Title: How French Artists in 1899 Envisioned What Life Would Look Like in the Year 2000 | Open Culture that last pic is hilarious of a roomba: https://cdn8.openculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/23233315/800px-France_in_XXI_Century._Electric_scrubbing.jpg https://www.youtube.com/@GnosticInformant/videos Title: Gnostic Informant - YouTube haumea: they almost nailed it with the electric scrubbing :D i like how the maid has it on a leash pulling it like a dog close enough lol Great article on abilene paradoxes: https://open.substack.com/pub/boriquagato/p/escaping-abilene-paradoxes-and-the Title: escaping abilene paradoxes and the future of the public square "in the end, the only way to make large groups of people do what they well and truly do not want to do is to get them to act like they believe things that they do not actually believe. and the only way to do that is to make them think that everyone else believes these things so that they bow to a false consensus and get in line." hamletmachine: the panopticon method of control; have prisoner's externally regulate their own thoughts and actions. prisoners externally , but really just internally basically both https://thisebikelife.com/e-bikes-overtake-buggies-for-some-amis/ Title: Not Acceptable! > The store is totally off the grid, something that is important to Amish families, but it is not lacking in electric power. interesting, seems for the amish, the non-modern tech is about dependence on the system rather than the tech itself https://sts10.github.io/2015/09/14/bell-labs-the-idea-factory.html Title: Bell Labs: An Institute of Creative Technology this is a fun one lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZMl4GyqljE Title: Jason Reza Jorjani FULL Interview (Unedited) - YouTube hello hi! how's it going? All fine, new to the project? Yes, a bit. I've popped on here a few times to chat about math and some noobie questions about darkfi. Same, did you awnser your questions? Sure did. Cool and what you learned? Mostly how to set up the darkfi ircd, send encrypted messages on it, and some resources for cryptography. I haven't set up that yet But as I know you create you pubkey and append your contracts in a config file righr? right? contacts* Correct nice, I'm not that lost I recall it being very easy. what brings you to the philosophy channel? I studied it Oh nice! What did you study in particular? and write time to time philosophical stuff In college we study a lot. But I'm very interested in p. of mind, epistemology, philosophy of science and ethics/politics. Is a bunch of topics hahaha Very cool. And you? I studied particle physics. damn! Interesting af i loved it. And what is the topic that is caughting your mind right now I have a friend who also studied philosophy and we were talking about why privacy matters. he really pushed my thinking on it but i felt like i didn't have the right framing or ideas to articulate its importance. Cool and what you concluded? that i haven't thought about it's importance enough, hahaha. hahahaha It is the trend right now the normal but I think that once the virtual mix more with us, it will be important in the public debate it will catch the eye of the public debate* what are your thoughts on the matter? Mmmm that is more important than ever, and once the computer-brain interface will be in its peak, privacy will do so in the public debate the disccussion of privacy* why is privacy important today? To have a more power balanced reality essentially Interesting. Care to ellaborate? There is an asymmetry of power between the government & capital and the people They can enforce actions on you, but you can't on them. I see. They can enforce what is truth and right, but when is the momment to apply the same to them they use the system against you Julian assange is perfect example to this that's a good point. I hadn't thought of it from that point of view. EUU is a terrorist state, when you denounce the terrorism they go to catch you with extradition and intelligence services how would you define privacy? The goverment == not the citizens I certainly agree with that. Sure. It resumes in power balance, at least for me. Wait a sec, I have something to discuss but have to do some thing no problem One thing that I'm questioning in my mind is that to which extent is desirable to be anti-state. Meaning the if there some form of state that is desirable (Nordic countries for example)? Mostly considering that is always necesarly to have political corpus to form a society, in some form or another when you associate you accomplish a center where the people gather. Or not all political corpus are states? https://darkrenaissance.github.io/darkfi/philosophy/philosophy.html Title: Philosophy - The DarkFi Book hmmmm ash: check this docu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1tVtEMKGAY Title: The Ascent of Woman - Episode 1 - YouTube origin of state civ in ancient history what would privacy look like in a totally anarchistic community? would it still be necessary? I'll for sure cehck that out My hypothesis that we call state to this very burocratical, top-down and giant organization. A bottom-up, human-scale and with cesation rights it is indeed have a political corpus but is not a state. An organization with bottom..* hanje-zoe: Bookmarked! Ty fatback: I think that yes, it would be necessary. But don't I have a clear idea about how it would be like since all orgs are different. ash: that's called government which is distinct from state do you think the underlying nature of reality is discrete or unified? are we all part of one consciousness coaxed by stimulus (mostly pain and anxiety) to pretend and fortify ourselves as discrete consciousnesses? or are we actually discrete consciousnesses capable of merging into greater consciousness? and, is it better to turn toward our fundamental nature? or is it best to move in opposition to it (in an effort to achieve balance)? these questions i think would inform an answer to that question "what would privacy look like in a totally anarchistic community?" privacy is a means to mobilize and make revolution society continually needs revolution to sustain life is that trotskyism lite: no i don't think we are all part of a borg-like consciousness or should strive for that i recommend this book: https://xeno.tools/uploads/nietzsche-willtopower.epub nietzsche says that philosophy has been pre-occupied with notions that basically condemn life and wants to reform philosophy into a celebration of life and becoming wouldn't that be what most religions do? well nietzsche would say no definitely not, most religions actually condemn life especially christianity which is his pet peeve nietzsche wanted a superman, and i guess the will of the majority will generally make no room for that ttype of 'will to power,' if i interpret him correctly.. so that would be his critique of organized religion and that majority defaults to an easy life first few chapters of thus spoke zarathustra shows that kind of progression, but i haven't finished that book christianity basically gets its problems from Plato who said the world of appearance < the world of truth, so basically condemning the world of becoming in favor of an imagined or idealized Being (later God) nietzsche says maybe there is a world of being etc, but we are creatures of becoming, our role is to service life instead of upholding e.g. virtue as more important than life he makes the point that most living creatures don't have a notion of virtue, so it's a purely human concept, and kinda an insult to life to say that's the main point of everything rather he says the main point of everything/ becoming is the will to power, which is basically life and its expansion and to your point wow, yes he sees christianity as what he calls slave-morality, so a herd-like, unfree, reactive mindset xeno: right, holding onto comforts, however 'incorrect or correct'? could stall this process of becoming, and change. yes it's connected to what you are referring to and what he calls in thus spoke Z the "last man" i guess one could say nietzsche is saying, 'don't stay on the beaten path, you won't find anything new,' be a bit daring and chart out a new path, however difficult would hate for that to become some quote on a calendar, as would he i think., but hey, here we are. i think he thinks this is a very small number of ppl who would or could do this, or he's just putting up another 'ideal' to strive for, however incomplete or incorrect or riddled with mis-steps and ultimately, nietzsche isn't a nihilist as some claim, but he wants the superman to create their own virtue/ethics/whatever i don't think he would agree with the 'anything goes' misinterpretation xeno: That Nietzsche point is very interesting and have been thinking a lot lately because my vegetarianism. one could argue, as Jordan Peterson does (even if indirectly), that humans have created their own virtue/ethics/and whatever that work across the society (IQs and personality types) and put them in a vessel called God. To be good (or virtuous) to its full, soon or later will be an attempt to your own life. it all makes sense, at least to me, when viewed through the prism of the selifish gene (Dawkins) But I don't agree totally, because some ideals are favour to life,it just contradicts it when you take it fully. And will == good is not sustainable, and the problem that gathers us today to embark a revolution. the reality of life is that some are doomed and must find meaning and utility in their doom. You can't just have a recipe for the lucky ones.. that won't work. rex: To which extent you think that morallity is cultural? morals* sustaining behaviours have ingrained themselves in our brains and "resonate" when we hear stories that reinforce them. We explore mutations to this programming thrtough cultural variation. as per selfish gene, some of us do not have cooperative programming (psychopaths and sociopaths), and so we must erect a cultural structure to keep them in check through uniform rules applied to all of society. we have developed an instinct to follow such an order because it saves us (societies) from hell rex: Do you think that there is something that precedes culture when deciding about morals? yes, but it is not universal. Dawkins showed in selfish gene that the existence of parasitic individuals is a valid survival strategy Ok, understand, what is the thing that precedes culture regarding moral? he explains in amazing detail how societies of very disparate innate behaviour (parasitic as well as cooperative) do survive over time without any sub-group being eliminated. the best answer i can give you is that it is God inside us God has no name, but can be described through countless adjectives and allegories. God is a complex patter that we see when we see its manifestations. *pattern some do not see the pattern, or do not let the pattern direct their behaviour. they submit to the antipattern. btw, if youre vegetarian, do try meat only for a while (and no carbs and then limited carbs). i have been on this for two years now and feel that my body is made for this diet If there is a god, he teach us good by experiencing pain. Imo us what is good* pain is superficial. it's a mechanism from before there was God maybe not superficial, but it is certainly more primitive we can experience pain in many ways, and different personalities will respond differently. there's no reason for the God pattern to limit itself to pain as stimulus So why is the point of pain then? what* sorry without it and the lessons it teaches you, you will quickly die of violent trauma i see it as practical do you see it as limiting? (it can be limiting) But why is not more practical to die? It is the case that to mutilate me, to hurt one-self and to die is good? If we find in ourselves the God pattern, it makes us want to live and experience the pattern more. Not finding the pattern makes us focus on pain (which isn't fulfilling) and even without pain, and for the non-parasitic of us, we may come to the conclusion that life is not worth living. lately i'm finding meaning in identifying the pattern inside myself and letting it drive me. it gives life meaning. part of the God pattern is respecting our body as a vessel that we need to serve it pain tells us when we may be damaging this vessel. but we also have the capability to withstand pain, when necessary. or even to endure pain in the service of a greater purpose To me to not-exist is has no worth at all, just to fully exist it has worth. say more To exist in good manner it is worth, not in bad manner or none. So for me, life it is identified with good. And we all can live to its full better yet. that seems to fit the God pattern :) That doesn't depens on culture No one would agree that pain it inself is good. cultures are behaviour patterns that sustain life in the face of antipatterns and external threats So that is true that don't do to others, the thing you wouldn't want. pain is necessary, so that we may avoid violent death.. and so pain is a mechanism that sustains life pain == bad death without utility or justice == bad Agree pain does not necessarily result in death, it can lead us toward life inflicting death without utility or justice == evil Yes, but pain it self we feel it as bad. Sure, you can sustain that pain conducts to better sometimes, but still you have acknowledge that you traded something bad to get something good. we feel it as something to avoid. it isn't pain that is bad, it is what it is responding to that is bad (like a hammer hit on your thumb) yes. this is why we have the capacity to withstand pain, if it accompanies an action that will accomplish a greater good So god teach to us with pain that's my point Yes. But that is not exclusively how God works. i get your point Agree i'm doing a writeup on this dark.fi project, so need to focus on that for a bit I neither reject god or believe in it. But if its exist it teach with pain. Which is a curious thing that why a God would want to experience pain. Ok, good to talk to you liewise luck (y) draoi: not a hyper-reductive, cold borg-like. more .. idk... jungle-like? lots of awesome discourse to read! i meditated on 'privacy as a means to revolution' a bit on my walk. which reminds one of leaves turning and cycles, perhaps our consciousness phases into and out of being part and whole based on context and where we are in a given cycle but its true, without privacy we can't sow enough misunderstanding to reach a critical revolution point. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2024/2/13/24070864/samotsvety-forecasting-superforecasters-tetlock Title: How do you predict the future? Ask Samotsvety. - Vox "Everyone on the chat gives their answer, and in each case it’s a number. Chinmay Ingalagavi, an economics fellow at Yale, says 8 percent. Nuño Sempere, the 25-year-old Spanish independent researcher and consultant leading our session, agrees. Greg Justice, an MBA student at the University of Chicago, pegs it at 17 percent. Lisa Murillo, who holds a PhD in neuroscience, says 15-20 percent. One member of the group, who asked not to be named in this context because they have family in China who could be targeted by the government there, posits the highest figure: 24 percent." > This is a meeting of Samotsvety. The name comes from a 50-year-old Soviet rock band — more on that later — but the modern Samotsvety specializes in predicting the future. And they are very, very good at it. lite: to be clear i think all borgs are bad, even warm ones ;) interesting how apes lost their tails when evolving from monkeys, because the tail is not used in their form of locomotion (walking on branches) so in evolution when something is useless, organisms will gradually lose that thing to optimize out useless energy expenditure (unless it's a small thing or too intertwined/complex to remove) adaptation is created through selection pressure (sexual, natural .etc) also there's a strong path dependency https://www.quantamagazine.org/mollusk-eyes-reveal-how-future-evolution-depends-on-the-past-20240229/ Title: Quanta Magazine > Monotremes are an egg-laying group of mammals represented today by the platypus and echidna. Recent genome sequencing of the platypus indicates that its sex genes are closer to those of birds than to those of the therian (live birthing) mammals. Comparing this to other mammals, it can be inferred that the first mammals to gain sexual differentiation through the existence or lack of SRY gene (found in the y-Chromosome) evolved only in the therians. path dependency, whereby sexual differentiation became much stronger in one mammal lineage due to the early evolution of a gene which could be utilized by other genes (if male ... else ...) hello hey fatback hey SIN. How do I tag a user in a message? I've completel forgot hahahaha fatback: just writing their username hi btw loopr: hey there yep exactly like that nice one! what's everyone getting into? myself learning lots of things, 1st steps into code u? I was about to dive into some privacy methods research. brb, gotta take the dogs for a walk. hello hello hi everyone My eyes can't see in the dark wear sunglasses, it helps Nor does the light would takes me https://youtu.be/m8VORE95D7s?t=1222 Title: Can We Clone the Tasmanian Tiger? ~ with Professor Andrew Pask - YouTube see 20:22, says we will have mammoths in a decade What are we gonna do with mammoths? brawndo: ride them towards sunshine what else? eat them brawndo: wolly mammoth herds in siberia would be pretty awesome heh https://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infpai/shellac.html Title: The Story of Shellac > mfw when ancient india had thermoplastics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEkKwOWZS_E Title: Why Melted Bugs On Candy And Lemons Fuel A $167 Million Industry | Big Business | Business Insider - YouTube https://alexanarcho.live/podcast/cypher-6 Title: Lunarpunk w/ Rachel Rose O'Leary - AlexAnarcho https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=63123 Title: Language Log » Scythians between Russia and Ukraine lol https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/22/style/china-reaction-netflix-show-3-body-problem-intl-hnk/index.html Title: Netflix blockbuster ‘3 Body Problem’ divides opinion and sparks nationalist anger in China | CNN test test back oh wow it works hey https://www.dlnews.com/articles/regulation/tornado-cash-developer-alexey-pertsev-on-trial-this-week/ Title: Why the $1.2 bn trial of Tornado Cash dev Alexey Pertsev will decide the future of crypto privacy – DL News crossing fingers for Pertsev https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League Title: Hanseatic League - Wikipedia "Decisions and actions of the Hanseatic League were the result of a consensus-based procedure. If an issue arose, the league's members were invited to participate in a central meeting, the Tagfahrt, that some argue already happened around 1300" yeah quite interesting hello hi what is a fundamentalist in programming? kanon: whoever writes code in the basement servt3: actually anyway, I know, my jokes aren't the thing :p Hey channel, very interested in this project But I have one question Darkfi laudably positions itself, if I understand well, through a "lunarpunk" and "going dark" philosophy, as antiauthoritarian and antistate Is there a longterm vision, in the sense, is it a parallel structure meant to exist forever, because it perceives "the enemy" can not be defeated? Or is there some "post" phase, when it is assumed that (with more or less help of darkfi) the oppressive nature of those structures have been overthrown, and a new phase starts? hey dotanon, great line of questioning lunarpunk positions itself as a "non-state" rather than an anti-state for precisely this rzn it wants to direct the focus to what is beyond the state, rather than the purely reactive position of being a negation of state power, which is the trap that anarchism typically has fallen into Oho interesting it's an unfinished project, but the goal of lunarpunk imo is to provide concrete examples of what a non-state looks like (thru e.g. scifi), while also manifesting this world (i.e. in life/ software etc) Me liking :) Are there any resources to read or watch about such concrete examples? rojava is a pretty strong example of a non-state there was a good article, let me dig it up I am aware of Rojava in its rough contures https://www.resilience.org/stories/2024-02-01/beyond-and-against-homogenisation-advancing-diversity-through-democratic-confederalism/ Title: 403 Forbidden Thank you thanks for clarifying that draoi, interesting. i wonder about that distinction between non and anti, and how the non-state approach does still create a foundation of undermining centralized power. the non-state approach is inherently undermining centralized power because it is usually assumed to be based on direct democratic structures, local councils and popular assemblies often actively and consciously trying to inhibit accumulation and centralization of power Graeber and Wengrow's "The Dawn Of Everything" report extensively about such pretty common but not so well-known examples in history my persoa personal pov of course hellol fatback: hi loopr: how's it going? pretty good, you? loopr: ya i think i agree with that. if the state is a totalizing power that tries to reproduce itself and its logic, then anything that undermines it would have some kind of 'anti-ness' to it. at the same time, one could just simply be non-state and seek to go off the grid and escape state power, so it's more of a passive response rather than a transformative one. wow: I would even say myself that such an "escape" as you put it is very much active i guess in other words, can a state really co-exist with movements that passively undermine it by creating alternative spaces? it may just not be very effective in creating network effect. It's more of a "personal active" action :) network effect would definitely bring about an eventual 'anti-ness' to non-state actions the state will happily coexist with such movements as long as they don't threaten its own existence at which point they will try to suppress them it could also be some kind of mechanism for the state to allow alternative movements to settle down and not actively challenge its authority aha yeah that's exactly what i was about to say ++ any hegemonic power will try to co-opt it's opposite. its sometimes funny to see lol. absolutely love reading this exchange, you two! +1 please chime in guys if you feel like and ladies popped in around the last several exchanges but what's coming to my mind from these exchanges is the validity of something like a parallelni polis. thanks fatback, i always appreciate a good exchange of ideas a very "active" group in the above terms regarding the state not being comfortable with coexiting with alternative movements - the states are increasingly adopting and enforcing digital id, survelliance and other tools that are sold as efficient systems to the masses while easily entrapping the populace in walled gardens. How do the non-state entities compete with systems that appear so efficient? anon, i think it's by creating independent organization that creates its own form of community control/power. which brings me to a similar point.. i think effective non-state movements must be anti-, in order to grow and florish and create independence. real independence, with real responsbility and democratic control. none of this fake stuff that just reproduces pre-existing power structures, whether state or by private/monopoly capital that fuses and controls said state IMO the state is in no way a monolithic entity even though its effects on society (e.g., surveillance, control) becomes monolithic; the state can be an arena of control and one that might need to be transformed itself wow: for my clarity, would you mind providing an example of "fake stuff". I'm not critiquing, just wanting to understand. fatback: i was thinking more generally. environmental problems? hey just buy organics... issues surounding imperialism and trade? just buy fair trade coffee! I follow. Thank you. too many oppressed ppl forming leadership to create independent communities? slander and crush dissent and create a day to celebrate, i guess? own form of community control/power is one leg in my opinion there are some lessons to be learnt from the open source movement fatback: take some recent discussions about a basic income. now that's not a bad thing really, considering ppl are getting screwed by rising prices, and all.. but really, what is that basic income going to do when all of it goes to rent. it's basically a subsidy for landlords like, it created great software, you don't really need google drive, word/excel or photoshop today loopr: ya that's a great example i think. it's universal. even private companies that depend on proprietary work have to engage with open source. it's just better however, even after creating more or less great pieces of software (and if we think linux, great example of cooptation as you mentioned), it did not yet manage to topple the established structures that's a shame :) ...yet hehe we also have to compete with their manufactured "convenience" To topple or to supplant? maybe best "to make obsolete" in the sense that people just flock to the new system *as soon as it makes their life better* this is especially important with currency ya, so many alternative movements create charity/networks/education/social services in light of a failed state. i don't think we wait for the collapse of the state to create those alternative systems we be ded then ++ +1 <3 can you expand on the lessons to be learned from open source beyond the technical? For instance, are there lessons to be drawn from the community that would be applicable to... I don't know, the distribution of mail, hahahah. fatback: tl;dr 'everything free, gimme gimme' lol jk in positive lessons: absolutely. open source projects are blueprints for democratic direct organizations it's actually a great question, given that open source 'shines a light' to ensure structures and systems are transparent. who wants to run crap that ppl have no way to verify or understand what's going on. it's a great question given this project and the dark forest, considering pure transperency can be an issue with the oppression that can happen etc in negative lessons: being open-source, or privacy-respecting, or censorship-resistant is sadly often not enough for the big public That's absolutely correct. need to be afk for a while, pls continue the convo i have friends and i beg them to use linux or get an understanding of it. even with all the junk being introduced into windows, sometimes you just can't get them on it.. DESPITE the fact that the internet runs a lot on open software and all that Try to get your cousin or friends to switch from fb messenger to signal and you'll feel like you're on trial defending yourself. now i just shame them i know right? like ffs whatsapp uses signal backend, supposedly i have zero trust they aren't doing typical facebook shit It's an enormous amount of inertia to overcome. whatsapp canot be built from source and is not verifiable anon: but 'i have nothing to hide' sigh simply uninstalling whatsapp is what I did since fb bought them, and I was a paying whatsapp user since 2012 gien their stance of ad free and never sell data what do you think could be a reason for such inertia? Convenience? Network effect? Features? ya i think it's a bit of all that. it's just lack of volume and ppl just not caring i guess there was that winter 2021 push that knocked out signal for a few days lol how whatsapp was gonna scrape all phonebook data whatsapp and meta aggresively builds regional features like local payments and integrations and "improves" the product for better/faster text/audio/video ya, many parts of the world have shitty internet, and whatsapp is pretty good at that, i think. i don't think signal video calls are as compressed looping back, no pun intended, to loopr's point about privacy not being enough...what do we think PPTs should incorporate to be enough for the broader public? ppts? powerpoint? sorry im tired lol Privacy preserving technologies. gotcha Actually, I'm an idiot. It's PET. Privacy Ehancing Technologies. i believe in the build and use it, and they will come. let all the proprietary junk burn out their users with enshittification. and ppl will shift eventually I like that you mentioned enshittification because I really like doctorow's compability concept. doesn't it all just become trash? it's striking how true it is lol i use youtube search, and i get results that have nothing to do with my search? what the fuck google? sorry i shouldn't swear, i dunno if i break some kind of community guideline here lol xD it doesn't bother me. the swearing, not the enshittification, haha :D k good I've been trying to learn more about the Czech Parallelni Polis because I wonder how feasible something like that is on a larger and longer scale. cool you'll have to explain it, i'm not familiar The short of it is, under communist CZ a group of people formed a community as an antagonist to the regime while living within it. ah, like autonomous communities? They did not put on a violent revolution or anything. They simply undid what the communists were trying to do. were they anarcho-syndicalists, like kinda sympathetic socially but against top down rule, or just straight up anti-government? their kids still went to the state schools because they had to. But in the evening, this community had their own schools that the kids would attend that were antithetical to the state schools. interesting They great thing is, they actually won. i don't know too much about cz history https://wikiless.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis?lang=en thanks It's absolutely fascinating. i just read up on him, says he was a defender of Pinochet, lol yikes (Benda) i am in full support of these types of systems, but i'm not completely convinced they, in and of themselves, will go completely unperturbed from the state. the example i tend to bring up is the waco seige. or operation m.o.v.e. basically every attempt at self organization will be dealt with Black Panthers? I have not heard of MOVE before. Reading about it now, hahaha. lol, yeah it's crazy i mean, i don't know if the surrounding areas appreciated any kind of disruptions that occured, i can't remember, but just another example of an insane response Another great example though to the concern I raise. But we can also look at the amish as, perhaps, a success story. apologies for all my examples being religious ones. they're just the examples I know most about. no problem, that's a good example i think we will find lots of communities, from different political ideologies, geographies, and cultures, facing similar issues i think you're right. what can we learn from the successes and failures of these communities that will help us forge our dark forest and lunar punk path successfully? ya.. lots to learn sounds contradictory, but maybe both overt movement and silent development. can't fully expose oneself cause of risks, but it's gotta gain some kind of public discourse acceptance maybe pointing to parallels that already exist.. like there's a reason locked doors exist. ppl want privacy and feeling of security no one wants to be judged for any random thought they think, or half baked dumb ass idea they say outloud lol i really think Smuggler was onto something when he mentioned disrupting the left half of the ooda loop for the state. haven't seen please hold...haha k https://yt.cdaut.de/watch?v=gTtbkguROdk Title: Studio 1: THE PROJECT OF CRYPTOANARCHY - Smuggler - Invidious It's a long video so kick back with a few beers and enjoy it. nice, thanks for sharing ill have to watch i don't want to take up all the space here so others feel free to speak what's been on your mind. good discussion goin on for sure i got things to do ill be in and out of here take care! fatback: yeah i was gonna say move has some interesting issues, and also apparently messed up things now that im reading more up on it. I don't really know much about them; only really brought them up generally was thinking about state response to.. i guess different communities like mentioned above, i think finding different examples from different circumstances and groups can find a common response to non-state activity you've provided a great example. whatever the intensity or the shade, i guess abstracting out, the more examples we have of communities opting out of the state the more we have to learn from independent of their particularly held beliefs. i'm not interested in the branch davidians religious beliefs, i'm interested in how they lived as a community alongside the state and how they could've reinforced themselves against the batf. enjoyed catching up https://aeon.co/essays/bernard-stieglers-philosophy-on-how-technology-shapes-our-world Title: Bernard Stiegler’s philosophy on how technology shapes our world | Aeon Essays > Our relationship with technology is about something deeper and more fundamental. It is about technics. https://www.thefp.com/p/im-28-and-im-scheduled-to-die I heard assisted suicide is legal in Switzerland i once read that crows cannot be kept as pets. they begin pecking their own feathers off, develop mental disorders and become suicidal maybe there's a memetic hygiene hypothesis where the lack of nature red in tooth and claw, living in attack and defense, our own mental immunology begins attacking itself >where the lack of nature red in tooth and claw What does this mean? <()> he means hard work i think > Charles Darwin published the book On the Origin of Species (1859), contemporary advocates for the theory of natural selection had adopted the poetical phrase Nature, red in tooth and claw i'm not sure memetic hygiene is the right term but sounds about right (see: animals in zoos stop reproducing, humans in liberalism stop reproducing, etc) I see In the west I mostly see degeneration hanje-san: what's that vid about the rat utopia where they all start going schizo > The criminal and what is related to him. — The criminal type is the type of the strong human being under unfavorable circumstances: a strong human being made sick. He lacks the wilderness, a somehow freer and more dangerous environment and form of existence, where everything that is weapons and armor in the instinct of the strong human being has its rightful place. His virtues are ostracized by society; the most vivid drives with which he is endowed soon grow together with the depressing affects — with suspicion, fear, and dishonor. Yet this is almost the recipe for physiological degeneration. from twilight of the idols draoi: damn yeah i wonder where that article is https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Behavioral_sink&useskin=vector they concluded malthusian idea about overpopulation, but i wonder if it would be the same with high population and high predation/warfare Junger: "the cult of crime... is so characteristic of our times. Its dimensions and extent are easily underestimated.... It would be no exaggeration to say that three quarters of [literature] deals with criminals, with their deeds and their milieu, and that its appeal lies precisely there. This indicates how far the law has become dubious. People have a sense of being under foreign occupation, and in this relation the criminal appears a kindred soul." lmao also Junger: "it is critical for the forest rebel to clearly differentiate himself from the criminal, not only in his morals, in how he does battle, and in his social relations, but also by keeping these differences alive and strong in his own heart. In a world where the existing legal and constitutional doctrines do not put the necessary tools in his hands, he can only find right within himself. We learn what needs to be defended much sooner from poets and philosophers." not the same article, but i found this on gwern.net https://gwern.net/mouse-utopia > What he found was more dramatic: the mouse population was not self-regulating and would grow to unsustainable levels, resulting in not just moderate decrease in quality of life, but an explosion of all sorts of strange & novel pathologies followed by total population collapse and possibly extinction. was gonna say, I recommend reading Ayn Rand's philosophy. Mainly, Philosophy Who Needs It, and The Virtue of Selfishness. Her fiction is good too, but can be too long for some people if you want to go deeper, her epistemology is great too, it's all very Aristotelian i liked the fountainhead fountainhead is probably my favourite of her fiction and the one I recommend to anyone wanting to start with her fiction Atlas Shrugged is good too, but it's very long, and very philosophy dense which might put off some people at first https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2m1fjV1dgU video on the larynx / voicebox of dinosaurs i never managed to finish atlas shrugged lol so dinosaurs made complex sounds like birds they didn't roar, but made vocalizations (like birds): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln80qwviWbo emu vocals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkg7_6iaPdY ostrich vocals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGxZ7eYPy44 cassowary vocals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QxIv62-rq8 this speculative t rex vocals is quite cool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eqJYtFO3SI article about emerging field of molecular paleontology where they're finding even DNA in fossils: https://www.thenakedscientists.com/articles/interviews/will-we-ever-see-dinosaur-dna they used to think that fossils were formed by minerals replacing bones in deposits, but now an emerging group believes they are actually the original material seems like a paradigm shift occurring and that the actual resolution of the fossils (which before was thought to be stone) is molecular https://academic.oup.com/nsr/article/7/4/815/5762999?login=false they even made beer from 45 million year old yeast https://www.wired.com/2009/07/ff-primordial-yeast/?currentPage=all that's pretty cool, still new stuff being discovered about dinosaurs, especially their fossils my dad used to think dinosaur fossils were a conspiracy lol deki: in the words of bill hicks, god must have put those dinosaur bones here to test us! wow: lol yeah Damn, I have just come back from seeing Dune 2 10/10 really? that's great, i'll watch then kinda thought the first one was more style than substance It is a strong topic about politics/religion It has* Indeed, but this second one is more deep and dramatic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Herbert%27s_Dune Title: Frank Herbert's Dune - Wikipedia this series is really good The first one is about amazing pics but very flat 2nd > 1rst ah wonderful ty Once you see it ping me and tell what you thougted about it Well, I'm going to sleep, see you at the meeting tmrrow https://www.afterbabel.com/p/phone-based-childhood-cause-epidemic > Social Media Really Is a Cause of the Epidemic of Teenage Mental Illness > Rises in Suicide Among Adolescent Girls (Ages 10-19) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9733629/ > mass sociogenic illness spread on social media > disproportionately impacting young girls ethdam: https://agorism.dev/uploads/screenshot-1712759431.png the last woolly mammoths died out 2000 BC in wrangel island. wild to think they existed in ancient antiquity! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_woolly_mammoth#Gene_editing about nature vs nurture debate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_that_have_been_cloned#Cat > Even though CC is an exact copy of her host, they had different personalities; i.e., CC was shy and timid, while her host was playful and curious. https://www.inverse.com/article/24268-dinosaur-chicken-gene-editing quotes by a yale professor: > using the comparative computer software that we have for looking at genomes, you could be like, ‘OK, first reconstruct the ancestral form, but then kick it up to make it a little more like the bird side.’ So you’re kind of edging up the tree towards birds, which is basically like going through dinosaur evolution,” he says. “I bet you you’d eventually get a little, like, velociraptor.” > more recently extinct creatures? We could make them. “We have the Neanderthal genome; that’s amazing. We have the mammoth genome; that’s mind-boggling,” says Bhullar. > “Somebody’s going to definitely bring back Neanderthals and it’s going to be super interesting, and all of a sudden we’re going to have two species of humans on the Earth.” > “It’s not something that I want to jump on, and yet, this will happen; the era of designer organisms is upon us,” he says. mad to think it's completely possible, just a question of economics at this point https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/10/shoplifting-crackdown-to-include-55m-for-facial-recognition-tools-in-england-and-wales lol england is such an authoritarian crime-ridden shithole also "the queen has no real power" mfw https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/11/courtier-demanded-assurance-king-could-not-be-prosecuted-under-new-welsh-law > During the queen’s 70-year reign, she vetted more than 1,000 draft laws before they were approved by elected politicians. Those included bills that affected the her personal property such as her privately owned estates in Balmoral and Sandringham. interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEX2MMyK6ps - russia will essentially win in ukraine, just a matter of time - US wants to withdraw but biden waiting for elections to finish - US superpower too overextended, wants to start unrolling its military spending overseas - EU spending is too low, taiwan too - US doesn't care about middle east - whether trump is elected or not matters little since executive doesn't have absolute power (the bureaucrats / deep state does) the US also doesn't have the capacity to develop new military equipment to compete with the likes of China, this is why you have stuff like AUKUS, where it kinda outsources this extra stuff to other Anglo nations : https://tinyurl.com/35wkkdww // unconditional surrender of the Kiev regime... : Title: DeepL Translate: The world's most accurate translator *ver *very* important and interesting question: what is the destiny of crypto? loopr: good question, I think either complete ban or some kind of embracement of the technology : remember ... ideas are bulletproof ;) new whitepaper from 0xMaki on incentiving complee validators (on eth initially) in order to head off the risks of continued centralization of validators as a result of so many liquid/restaking protocols: https://github.com/Finallyt/Heroglyph/blob/main/Heroglyph-Whitepaper.pdf Title: Heroglyph/Heroglyph-Whitepaper.pdf at main · Finallyt/Heroglyph · GitHub "large node operators create a nexus of control that regulators will find hard to resist as a tool to enforce government financial censorship or speech restrictions " (also a word of warning for our own eventual DarkFi POS designs) hamletmachine: I just open the pdf, do I see redacted stuff? wtf hello! hi! how's everyone doing? war theatre :D i thought ww3/4/5 was starting last night anyone have favorite resources on new warfare? drones, and how etc groups like the houthis use cheap drones to drain usa's military budget user: maybe looking at previous stuff on the history of guerrilla wars may help, like other forms of asymmetric warfare, would be interesting to look at from a historical perspective. could be interesting to look at to look at some of this new stuff. can everyone share their favorite big thinkers - geopolitics, philosophy, history this year will be pivotal. what a time to be alive user: this was interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK8K_69R9iI Title: Jason Jorjani & Uberboyo | American Colossus - Prometheus on Alcatraz - YouTube about the drones stuff, israeli pioneered those drone swarm tactics, also bayraktar and how turkey become a mini-power from drones my bros rn are junger/ nietzsche/ eliade/ schmitt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK8K_69R9iI Title: Jason Jorjani & Uberboyo | American Colossus - Prometheus on Alcatraz - YouTube oops reposted XD reposted for emphasis :D user: Geopolitics; I follow policy shapers and academics. These are the most relevant. To understand the world order; Kissinger = World order. To understand the great game and current wars; Brzezinski - Grand Chessboard. Current and objective analysis of war in the Ukraine; Big Serge on Substack. This is more detailed and requires some understanding of the "art of war" I heard good things about Perun's Youtube channel also. History; Peter Frankopan - The silk road, is a nice recap of the history and also doesn't follow 'Hitler was simply evil bad guy' narrative. Philosophy; I higly recommend to find academics and thinkers within the "Critical Theory" such as Gabriel Rockhill. Please avoid Slavoj Zizek. Anyway, Brzezinski's book will hit the nail on the head and make you question how isn't everything out in the open since all the war theaters are preplanned and written down ten years ihn advance at least. Maybe a bit hard on the stomack though, like Kissinger to some extent. Stomach* draoi: Tell us more :) junger- the forest passage, on pain.. nietzsche- will to power, thus spoke zarathustra.. eliade- eternal return, patterns in comparative religion.. schmitt- theory of a partisan.. (haven't gotten further than this but schmitt 'nomos of the earth' is a fundamental thesis on geopolitics) some books that made a strong impression on me recently i'm also a big fan of 20th century celtic revival literature esp. padraig pearse, but realize that might be more of a niche taste... dugin is good to read to understand russian geo-pol (he inspired the politicies) *policies philosophy wise i'd also consider nick land pretty much required reading since all contemporary theory these days is in some ways post-land, in the same ways it has been post-kant since 19th century tho land probably suffers the same affliction as deleuze in that he's almost "too" contemporary, "too" timely, "too" precident Anything from Dugin that is an easy entry into his work? And Nick Land? https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/1781773198192783369 <3 !list Will add it ;) what does ! list do? ty :) fatback: lists open topics for discussion, like in meetbot !list No topics !topic hello Added topic: hello (by brawndo) dasman: right on, thanks! !deltopic 1 Removed topic 1 hello Gd! At 1st May 14:00 UTC we will have a philosophy meeting where we will discuss a text related to free software. Here is the link to the text: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/290120192_Free_software_philosophy_and_open_source pd: no need to register ash: That's so cool, will try to join that's great! hello o/ how we doin? hi how's it going? blah anyone got the pdf for https://www.researchgate.net/publication/290120192_Free_software_philosophy_and_open_source ? draoi: small world, https://gcas.ie/about/our-leadership/board-of-trustees/tere-vaden the author of that paper his fund robin hood coop has a pic of macao lol https://www.noemamag.com/we-need-to-rewild-the-internet/ SIN: thanks for sharing this article hello hello fatback hello New submission for DarkFi insights by @Narodism "Let's do something fun together. Let's deny fate. The more of us that say no, the more fun it is. Deny the corrupt politicians. Opt out and say no. They are impotent. They cannot do anything to compel us to follow their arbitrary rules." https://dark.fi/insights/samourai-devs-arrested-is-a-wake-up-call.html you heard it here first banger the only project having the balls to push back is DarkFi "DarkFi realizes these issues. All our dev contributors commit through Tor on codeberg on an anon account." oh lord... > "UFOs aren't real" mfw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter_UFO_incident > Jimmy Carter, United States president from 1977 until 1981, reported seeing an unidentified flying object while at Leary, Georgia, in 1969. > Despite his earlier pledge, once elected, Carter distanced himself from disclosure, citing "defense implications" as being behind his decision. after saying if elected he would make everything public https://news.bitcoin.com/globalist-power-is-no-longer-a-moral-authority-amir-taaki-responds-to-samourai-charges/ : greets o/ o/ hey don't we have a philosophy meeting now? ash hi probably people having trouble getting online ah i just saw it's 14:00 UTC put this in your ircd_config.toml peers=["tls://acab.accesscam.org:25561"] i thought that was now, but just googled and it's in one hour ah ash: unsure if I'll make it on time for the meeting, I need to leave soon because my battery is low and the public transport where I'm at is infrequent coz of this public holiday Gm! o/ draoi: How are you? Let's wait until others join hi hey! good tnx, you? I'm fine too, excited to start the dialogue nice 3-5 min I think should be fine and start I'll go for a coffe ok maybe not so many ppl will show since it's a holiday It is true and sad that they can't join, but on the other hand we can speak more freely and go deeper, at first I was thinking about talking in turns, but now is not necessary deki: no worries Let's start? sure yep what's the format? nice, what did you think about the text, key conclusions and key questions? i think stallman made a mistake with the free software movement, he didn't have a strong economic model which allowed opensource capture to happen the text was cool, nice to see a schematic analysis of FS vs OS positions he wasn't able to adjust strategically at the key moment when it started taking off also i disagree with his proposed biz model, it doesn't really work. you end up with dual tiered software (free vs paid versions), and it doesn't fund base infra like libs (see heartbleed, and other core code) for context, we are discussing: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/290120192_Free_software_philosophy_and_open_source maybe history/hindsight is 20/20, but we've seen that billion dollar corpos are willing to rip off devs work and not pay a single penny https://imgb.ifunny.co/images/de19728f871918951ca016d6e2b47ec69d6e1882cfd6453c1cbd43a2b97f6857_1.jpg crypto seems to be a good solution to the FS economic problem this part of the text stood out to me: According to Eric S. Raymond, “Every good work of software starts by scratching a developer’s personal itch” (Raymond, 1999). This is in clear contrast with the intentional, systematic, and collective effort described by Stallman: “essential pieces of GNU software were developed in order to have a complete free operating system. They come from a vision and a plan, not from impulse" comes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar#Lessons_for_creating_good_open_source_software i liked the contrast in this sentence between the two positions philosoraptor: That's a fair point, but before jumping into the critque I would like to rescue its arguments It would be valuable* OS tries to deny politics, but in doing so also advocates a very particular set of politics but it's a politics based on the denial of politics That's right! we also see the same kind of attitude in crypto What stallman is concerned is that software doesn't avoid sharing, forming a community and be cooperative our liberty to form a community yes i like the free software emphasis on positive liberties sharing and have communities is an inalienable right for him draoi: Can you elaborate more about how OS avoids politics? Linus Torvalds: “I can’t totally avoid all political issues, but I try my best to minimize them. When I do make a statement, I try to be fairly neutral. Again, that comes from me caring a lot more about the technology than about the politics, and that usually means that my opinions are colored mostly by what I think is the right thing to do technically rather than for some nebulous good” it's almost like history is cyclic, and crypto is repeating the same discussions/arguments that happened 3 decades ago in free software philosoraptor: true af so the quote from Linus above is a kind of retreat into a notion of technical goodness instead of making actual ethical judgements it's a symptom of a society where spirituality and morality has been eroded and people become more like machines, or want to be more like machines yeah they said the same in btc about blocksize issue that users are too dumb to make the choice, that it's a technical decision but reality is that it was not a technical decision ++ would've been better if they were honest, and instead tried to argue their position on its own merits rather than trying to manipulate users this way there's also a tendendency for ppl to talk about blockchain as something eternal and immutable, an absolute etc. even DAOs were originally portrayed in this way, as autonomous machinic intelligences beyond good and evil I'm wondering if this apolitical attitudes is being embeded/enforced into the principles of OS, or it is just part of its discourse.(?) its metaphysical with opensource interesting how opensource and free software are practically the same idea but the ideals/memes make the world of difference ++ on being beyond good and evil, i wanted to share this quote from nietzsche, from will to power where he argues for a re-valuation of all values and basically destroys "morality" which is the dominate notion of good via christianity "Have I harmed virtue? . . . As little as anarchists harm princes: it is only after these latter have been shot at that they again sit securely on their thrones . . . For thus it ever was and ever shall be: one cannot better serve a thing than by giving chase and setting the dogs on it . . . This I have done." so he goes to war with virtue to better serve it i think that's really important and a complete departure from OS and tech morality which is basically a denial of virtue i'm just saying i don't think OS is beyond good and evil in a nietzschean sense i think it's basically morally and spiritually deficit i have another question, did OS "win"? how do we measure the success or failure of OS vs FS? and to what extend did being morally ambiguous (a better fit for the times?) help OS in this "victory"? i mean it's kinda a weird question if it won hence scare quotes it is a corrupted form of free software that got captured free software/linux failed to deliver altho we're seeing change more recently happening I'm trying to understand nietzsche quote philosoraptor: can you explain more how FS failed, what it should have done different, and what things would look like if it had? there's a myth in technology that it follows a single trajectory, an unstoppable path/ evolutionary process but actually when you study history of technology there are many mistakes and contingencies still, it's hard to imagine a world w/o OS fueling mass surveillance campaigns and war machines Nietzsche says that by fighting the king(morality) one renforces it again, meaning, fighting the negative. Ergo, stand and start with a possitive will first? if I got it right? draoi: well for nietzsche, all will is will to power- he argues that christian morality condemns life, and wants to create a new pagan morality that celebrates life in all its nuance with this quote, i was mostly pointing out that he says "one cannot better serve a thing than by giving chase and setting the dogs on it", i.e. by attacking something you strengthen it, this is what he wants to do for "virtue" Got it so i was just making the point that being beyond good and evil in a nietzschean sense does not mean being a-moral (like OS/ engineering mindset promotes) Regarding the other question I think that Stallman was way advanced in the future So personally I wouldn't say that the movement is lost right, it actually seems to be gaining momentum rn, with the growth of linux and systemd backlash draoi: Exactly, being apolitical is a political point of view i think the apolitical thing is also maybe a strategy for ppl to deflect responsibility for what they build linux didn't become a huge desktop that everyone uses, it was niche draoi: correct philosoraptor: Yes, well, there is the network effect that microsoft has over the market, that it is. They install windows over all commercial computers. oh yeah linux rly lost the phone market as well that's a big loss imagine we all had linux phones that would be amazing i think i remember stallman saying something similar he also seemed open to the idea of funding free software projects w crypto Again, probably crypto is what the software libre needed, Stallman was away ahead of its time I'm afraid. ++ it's amazing how he forsaw surveillance capitalism Going further, Stallman attacks that is core to captialism, property rights. well as the article mentions he believes software should be free but doesn't make statements as to other forms of goods It is, maybe I can reformulate, society will be more suited to free software, if there is cultural discourse against property Since property rights is embeded into the society is difficult to jump into free software That hasn't happened yet perhaps, but also perhaps digital things are less inherently scarce than physical goods, and so less liable to conflict It is, for sure, intelectual property is not scarce, but still the mentality of privatizating everything is present To take benefits And making benefits at all cost is like the ethics of capitalism yes ppl want to monetize/ capture the value of contributions even when non-scarce, like intellectual etc however i think this is possibly breaking down due to the internet post-authorship etc But Stallman says just because something is harder to do (monetize music, books, etc...), that doesn't imply that you are justly allowed to do that wdym? not following 2nd half of sentence And that people doesn't understand, that liberty is first and sacred Ah sorry Virtual or intelectual property is easy to copy If it is easy to copy, is therefore hard to monetize what about crypto? you can program economies/ markets and create incentive systems But just because some ways of producing goods are hard to monetize, does that means that we are entitled to restrict freedom and cooperation? ah gotcha gotcha right the stallman perspective is- you should not sacrifice freedom for your business model and OS basically says- actually it's fine to sacrifice freedom but the source should be open cos it's more secure That's the question of Stallman. Sadly producing art or literature is hard to monetize, but that doesn't mean that we can scarifice the individual freedom to share draoi: agree! i have a couple of suggestions for the next meeting Sure! i'll let you guys decide which one 1. Democratic Theory and Self-Transformation https://www.jstor.org/stable/1964012 this came to mind since we were discussing different kinds of goods (scarce, non scarce etc). it's a really interesting analysis of different forms of democracy, liberal vs transformative democracy 2. Do artifacts have politics? https://faculty.cc.gatech.edu/~beki/cs4001/Winner.pdf this is a classic philosophy of technology essay that examines the interaction between politics and technology I'll love to explore the second nice let's do that then also I think that is related of today talk ++ want to continue same time, May 16th? (in 2 weeks) Sure! nice, thanks for setting this up hopefully some more ppl come next time :) It has been a pleasure Sure happy to continue to discuss async, gtg afk for a bit now thanks a lot, see you It would be good to thin about how to conduct the dialogue think* ++ Probably we should use the topic tool for turns, or type "." when finish talking Otherwise, can get messy but hey nice talk hey nice talk <3 ty did i miss the reading group discussion? looks like i did :( checking out the logs so we would be talking about the second topic next time? I'll be present as well. : “In Nuclear War: A Scenario, Annie Jacobsen gives us a vivid picture of what could happen if our nuclear guardians fail…Terrifying.”—Wall Street Journal : someone's watching too much fallout : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_War:_A_Scenario haha it's gna be a movie apparently : Title: Nuclear War: A Scenario - Wikipedia : directed by the dune/ blade runner 2 guy : gm sirs gm gm gentlemen this was awesome https://x.com/lunar_mining/status/1786296169418707180 nice writeup whoever this was thanks, it's not just charlotte fang, but there's a common pattern of using thermodynamics to make narratives more convincing i just hate when it's used to make cucked arguments like "oh we can't do anything cos thermodynamics" here's another example: https://flugschriften.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/flugschriften-6-bogna-konior-the-dark-forest-theory-of-the-internet-v.2.pdf yeah I've noticed a lot of analogies lately to thermodynamics, very interesting to read always plus as you said it's often used in the negative ty making science analogies in philosophy is good etc but ages badly when it becomes dogma bogna's essay is peak digital serfdom cope (as are some of charlotte's takes too :P) indeed, good point, I haven't read this essay will check it out now yet another example: https://beff.substack.com/p/notes-on-eacc-principles-and-tenets ah yeah I follow this guy it comes from nick land imo the thermodynamics metaphor/ aesthetic/ model ic https://nautil.us/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-571584/ catching up with the logs, great discussion you all had Hello, what’s up? :) hey joseph_kari o/ anon how are you? not much activity here we have philosophy meetings every 2 weeks in this chat next one is wednesday 15:00 UTC (i mean in this #philosophy channel specifically) oh nice to know I’ll try to join, I’m so glad you are doing this over IRC and not bullshit discord :) it's p2p and has encrypted DMs and channels also this is the text we will be discussing https://faculty.cc.gatech.edu/~beki/cs4001/Winner.pdf we did this one last week: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/290120192_Free_software_philosophy_and_open_source ahh actually next one is May 16th ppl are free to propose future texts etc during the discussion why do so many devs use discord? is it just cos network effect? do they? seems all the devs use IRC on libera maybe not but someone was saying yday it's popular with devs, just hearsay really i think it's just popular in general with gaymers friend was saying it's gathered a lot of crypto projects and is the most significant silo this szn which intersects with semi-technical ppl like pc users .etc so it's a good fit for things like 3D game engines yeah young crowd, semi-technical i wonder whether it's more important for crypto than twitter ++ i'm in the pygame community and it's so dogshit, full of 11 year olds learning to code haha tell them to get on IRC #thatstheoldschoolway there's also some tech communities i'm in which are both on discord and irc such as dwl the irc one is more core dev, higher tier devs whereas discord is full of newbs normie containment channels haha very much so I find discord too distracting, to much noise, hard to follow etc i just found the old darkfi discord we setup as an experiment: > "Hi everybody. I see that this group is even more private and darker than DarkFi in Element. We are less here! So... This is the darkest social net where I am. Let be there dark!!" :P :) we have the dev meet tmrw fyi But my main issue with discord is how bad for privacy it is, requires more and more private informatio information yeah damn, are you a dev? In general or for darkfi? in general lol kindaof I worked a lot in open source project in the end of the 00 early 2010 ah nice, i think i found your gh. lets exchange keys so we can DM [contact."narodnik"] contact_pubkey = "Didn8p4snHpq99dNjLixEM3QJC3vsddpcjjyaKDuq53d" How to do this? https://darkrenaissance.github.io/darkfi/misc/ircd/private_message.html it seems obtuse, but we are making a GUI now (see bin/darkwallet/), and the new version of this chat has message history (see bin/darkirc/) no problem I’m used to go in the darkness of a terminal <3 I’ll do it once I have a bit more time nw im here 16/7 lol By default without Tor, what is the privacy offered by IRCd? you can change your nick using /nick foo so there is no linkability of messages to prevent spam, you will stake your keypair and every message produce an RLN: https://darkrenaissance.github.io/darkfi/crypto/rln.html it's not yet integrated but the contract is here https://codeberg.org/darkrenaissance/darkirc-rln users will still be able to post for free without staking, but under high traffic, the system will require RLN. if you spam the network you get slashed all messages are completely unlinkable, and there is no identity it is p2p, and we will add optional moderators later (plus encrypted channels + DMs) oh okay interesting the situation with samourai wallet really opened my eyes yeah we need to get ourselves more out there we were really under the radar last year or so focused on dev yday i was reading how gunpowder was discovered first in China but didn't disrupt society since China's scientists were also statesmen and bureaucrats tasks with maintaining social order whereas once it got to medieval europe it completely reconfigured the class structure transformed a society that was organized into men with horses and men w/o horses to a society where anyone could claim power with a gun seems similar to encryption technology today the west is dying, east doesn't offer any solution except authoritarianism maybe the spaces "inbetween" could become the new renaissance regions yeah we desperately need some nation bold enough to embrance encryption tech east europe, africa, middle east, india kinda area if not, it will just happen in the neo nation of cypherspace How is east europe "friendly" toward encryption? i didn't mean they are, just western nations are very comfortable with the status quo, they don't need these emerging techs east europe (and the other places) are kind of lawless, so it's a good fit for crypto networks... also people used to using cash, informal networks, .etc I would say western nation are turning hostile to encryption. There was a lot of push recently against encrypted messenger whereas places like the UK are completely locked down surveillance states with decaying social order, moving to cashless society i seem to remember india banning crypto or something but yeah how can you enforce that Apparently there are already people in UK scared of using monero world seems kinda split between emerging neo-empires and those copying the western nation state model, both forms of governance are hostile to encryption and freedom there's not gonna be a single nation state to be pro-encryption, why would they? What's in it for the state? yeah i used the world "nation" rather than nation state selectively ah right I get it I mean there are certain region that try to be pro "crypto" but not at the level of the state more like cities that's why i said "inbetween" places - that is places with weak to nonexistant states wow city seccession would be cool however the example draoi gave of china is good cos it's like the chinese state prevented emergence of new tech but doomed themselves to poverty long term city states would be a good solution, but you still won't be any match against the military power of the state yeah the china example was a good point weak states with independent craftsman pursuing risky tech and business was how gunpowder (and modern science) flourished in europe according to the "Order out of Chaos" book europe is kinda unique in that so many different people live in close proximity, so there was always an incentive to find other ways to accrue power but like you guys said, I think the best chance for some pro-encryption society is the inbetween spaces, something that starts online and creates networks throughout the world until there's an inflection point where you can form your own state/city but you'll still be up against the might of the state military, and it's only advancing further. Politics attracts genuine psychopaths, and these people won't simply stand to the side as their raison d'etre is taken from them we might be in the persecution timeline and may not live to see the fruits I think you're right, definitely in a persecution phase however time/ tech seems to still be accelerating, so things will probably happen faster than Church persecution of early science etc good point, I hadn't considered that about tech accelerating, and the state doesn't always stay ahead of the curve weird how 10 - 20 years ago, the p2p revolution was the big idea but nothing really came out of it now everybody forgot about that and moved onto AI? i wonder why the p2p paradigm wasn't left uncompleted, it seems too obvious of a power to unlock esp given all the discontent with corrupt elites depends what major tech co is pursuing, they kinda define the trends, plus I think p2p never had the 'fun' looking UI that draws so many to say Apple we started working on the UI aspect https://armor.vision/ui/2/Desktop.png peter thiel has a good (although totally harram) analysis of why big tech won in zeroes and ones AI will make shit weirded for sure and will certainly accelerate surveillance *weirder nice UI and peter thiel also has palantir which is accelerating the digital panopticon ++ what do you mean totally harram? i mean i morally object to his analysis oh right, don't know what that word means it means "forbidden" in arabic/ Islam oh I see, I don't know arabic lol I'm optimistic about the future, even though I think the state will do whatever it can to survive, and nothing is off limits for them I dated someone from our left-wing party in my country once, and whilst the next generation of politicians is even more insane than previous ones, they're also significantly more dumber lol like levels of stupidity you wish you never encountered the modern globalist liberalism grasps at random righteous causes to disguise its own lack of ethics When I was at university there was a guy there, he was getting involved in all kinds of student action groups etc. very nicely said He was there when I joined and still did not finish any "significant" degree or paper and was there after I left thinking people see through this ecleticism and missing driving principle a lot of them are like that joseph, same story where I am He was the definition of "talk a lot" put himself in position of power and do typical politic stuff And now he is a local politicien in my town :P. Recently he was caught selling on the "black" market fake coupons to get some kind of stuff at the grocery store yeah that's them everywhere, they're good at acting, unsurprising yeah and people seem to not care The last two weeks I was pretty demotivated after what happened to samourai and other in the crypto / bitcoin space. And I was thinking what can I say i can,t share this with my coworker, they would not understand, would not care most of us in the West have access to all the comforts and luxuries we want, or just enough to keep us placated/content and most don't want to disrupt that I’m a happy cow with free healtcare getting milked for my taxes it's strange with samourai, you'd expect more of an outcry or solidarity from the dev community over state censorship i guess it's too obvious they were running infra and benefitting from fees Well but I disagree, VPN companies also earn money providing a service, postal service also earns money when they transfert packages it's been kinda silent, I mean you can still take a stance against what was done to them based on principle, without defending whatever dodgey stuff they may have been doing Wallet could have implemented ricochet for instance. That is trivial, imagine if now half of the wallet would have it It seems almost everybody is just standing down, complying and not saying too much idk but I get the impression a lot of the crypto space has either sided with the 'we're gonna be cucked to the state' or 'we are just here to make a fortune on shitcoins then cash out' few groups/people with principles or a vision (except this project as far as I can tell) I would put monero is quite resiliant yeah and people on twitter decrying the state of crypto while also cashing in as a KOL out of curiosity, do you know the project "logos" they made some advertising the other day. My usual assumption is everything is a scam unless proven otherwise I haven't heard of it, but I've stopped following a lot of crypto news, a lot of it is distracting its hard to separate the useful from the scammy / copypasta definitely, but I think you can do a 'vibe check', like darkfi checks out so far what made for me darkfi interesting is the connection with dark wallet -> samourai and the fact that you do not ask me to use discord yeah I came across this via the dark wallet youtube video, which is probably the best crypto themed media (or telegram) not using discord is an added bonus lol And simplex which I tried with one of my friend is really pain in the ass so much is slightly not working with it. Most frustrating experience ever i don't get simplex. why bother if it's centralized and offering nothing new really? never heard of simplex reminds me of all the github alternatives that disappeared years ago deleting my repos at least if i use your new thing, make it p2p ironically if samourai was hosting on github they might still have the repository up just like tornado cash is still there afaik where did they host? their own which was taken down at the same time as the rest ahh I'm logging off for a bit frens, c-ya cya! :> So wen dark.fi ETF? ---> [] cbdctracker.org we're in the process of upgrading our exchange listings. should be out in the next announcement kek Hello hey there alanparker3 how are you doing? pretty good. wbu? I’m fine, just checking out dark.fi we're prepping for final testnet, dev meet today 16:00 CET in #dev Nice :) samourai had a gitlab : draoi you reading anything good these days? In the last little bit I've worked through Ocalan manifesto vol. 1 and almost complete vol. 2 : once I'm done I'll need something new : oh nice : well the 3rd ocalan book is probs my fav hah : did you read forest passage already? i loved that : i'm reading order out of chaos atm it's really interesting : do you know where I can find vol.3 online? having a hard time tracking it down and not sure I wanna order it with a credit card : I am interested though.he says many times "I'll dicuss this in my third volume" and always on a juicy subject : so I gotta read it : haven't read Forest Passage yet but I should : https://xeno.tools/uploads/ocalan-sociology.epub : wow, hero : tysm : forest passage was amaze, uncannily contemporary, tho some ppl don't like jungers writing style (i do) : i plan to work my way thru the book recommends here: https://ebuchman.github.io/about/ : Title: About • Easy There Entropy : ah nice, I'm familiar with ethan from working with the cosmos ecosystem a bit : Order out of chaos by Prigogine? : yes : this looks really interesting from ethan's list: https://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/6928#t=aboutBook : Title: Just a moment... : yeah this looks crazy haha : have you read Seeing Like a State? : no, should i? : I liked it a lot but it's a slog : it's an academic text and pretty readable but takes a long time : tl;dr is how 'master plans' for society fail and how things generally work out better organically from the bottom-up : but with a lot of sociological examples, quite rigorous. spanning a lot of topics too : oh nice : one really interesting example was cities. there is a famous architect Le Corbusier, maybe you have heard of him : yes : kind of a madman who wanted to bulldoze downtown Paris and turn it into his perfect vision of a city : he actually got to design whole cities but they turned out dead and articifical. hostile to actual communities : reminds me of the cathedral and the bazaar essay : i've not read that actually. skimming wiki though I see the parallels : the Seeing Like a State thing is really an argument against universalism and nation-state monoculture so really nice companion reading to Ocalan imo : gotta step away for a bit, bbl : nice, thanks for the thoughts : btw we have a philosophy discussion group that's started, next meet may 16th : see you! : may 16 - what time? : HCF: 15:00 UTC if I am not wrong : ty hello hello : hey the philosophy meeting is May 16 at 16 UTC? is that right? : i'd like to come : draoi? or anyone else know? : should be this wednesday I believe : which is May 15th not 16th : HCF ^ : ty nighteous hello : np : which text is being read for this weds? : https://faculty.cc.gatech.edu/~beki/cs4001/Winner.pdf : ty : i said thurs 16th cos i'm travelling wed : but feel free to do the meeting w/o me, i'll try to chime in over mobile : a note on the time- HCF said 16 UTC above but i believe it's normally 15 UTC i.e. the same time as the Monday dev meet but on Wednesday : wodensdag :D yes pretty sure it's 15 UTC, I remember asking for an hour earlier than the intended time hello : now Im not sure when it is. If everyone is fine with it, lets do it on 16th thursday. Hey, I was afk, but tomorrow we have a philosophy meeting My bad, it is 16th may this thursday thurs 16th @ 14.00 UTC https://faculty.cc.gatech.edu/~beki/cs4001/Winner.pdf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIULmTprQ6o see 15:00, he talks about the depiction of the futures in the contemporary movies https://youtu.be/aqSYEqJxw18?t=755 wtf did andy greenberg become a plant? he says cryptocurrency is a honeypot : hi, is the meeting starting now or did I mix up the times? : not ur fault, there was some misinfo and indecision about when to have the meet : thurs 16th @ 14.00 UTC : ah OK, ty : and what is the topic again? is there a specific text? : https://faculty.cc.gatech.edu/~beki/cs4001/Winner.pdf : thanks : I started vol3 btw, enjoying it so far : nice : yeah it kinda summarizes the ideas of previous texts and is more concrete : for sure : I found the writing style felt a bit more solid also. I am sure that is influenced a lot by whatever conditions he is in while writing : but it seemed more clear and confident : HCF, is the writing style different from vol1? (still reading vol1, I am slow ;-;) : https://boards.4chan.org/sci/thread/16168968 : HCF: yeah my preferred one too, i like how definitional and clear it is : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Pmkg-lRVI : documentary about use of misinf by Mi5 in northern ireland : wild stuff : you should read The Devil's Chessboard if you haven't : they ran a boy's foster home to entrap political figures with child sex, and employed 14 yo catholic girls as "agents" : very disturbing : these agencies have no scruples : the witchcraft psyop they ran in ireland was so fascinating : i read ghost wars about the CIA in afghanistan, was v enlightening how they operate : draoi link? : that documentary also covers it : ok, can't watch now but added to my notes : basically they made fake satantic ritual sites and spread stories in the newspaper about occult rituals with blood splatters and stuff : ah wow : eventually a child was actually ritualistically killed, they say it was the intelligence agencies tho : fuck : *wasn't : the common analysis ppl say is basically ireland is a religious and superstitious ppl so they wanted to exploit that and make ppl feel like the world had turned evil : the documentary says they would start local news stories and send in fake letters, then encourage big news media to pick up local stories : in a round about way to turn them against the IRA : and use that to backup their claims : they had files on all major politicians in england, and could use that to end their career : also says basically everyone in the establishment (including journalists) are dependent on info from intelligence : so if intelligence doesn't like you, then you get sidelined and lose power : it seems like an almost timeless pattern. basically if you slander your enemy as having inferior culture and are able to cast them as child-killers, then any following violence is justified or even necessary : you can think of a ton of examples : hi : hi : wonder how many will show for philosophy discussion today, given the uncertainty around times : ash: around? I gotta go in a few minutes so can't stay for this one : hm yeah would be a shame if no one comes o/ : last week was just 3 of us and 1 person left half way thru hah hi : lol too bad. hard to coordinate across timezones I guess : where is it? here or ircd? : i think it could work if we have a fixed time and stick to it, like the weekly dev meeting : ++ : hi frieren defo : wherever is fine : yeah fixed time better, i didn't even know it was on until yesterday Hey! : yeah some people are messaging on ircd hey ash hey I guess we should move here? : ok let's move there gm all where? here haha https://faculty.cc.gatech.edu/~beki/cs4001/Winner.pdf we were messaging on darkirc but more people appear to be on ircd (this channel) hahaha did ppl get a chance to read this? yes nice Hey I had a huge family problem, barely I could read, my attention got fucked. sadly i had a cold, first day i'm better and today was v busy sorry to hear ash But I will listen sorry to hear ash, hope everything is ok now all things considered thank you very much didnt finish the article, got through about halfway is there normally a structure for these meetings or do we just jump around for what we found interesting? yeah a few things: i'll start w an intro and then we can discuss ++ Hmmm the idea is that the discussion goes in turns ++ - should be a fixed time, maybe biweekly instead of weekly esp for 20 page articles it's biweekly and is 1 hr long - a format/structure is advisable format is: whoever proposed the text gives an intro and then is the moderator/ asks questions to others ok ty ty one more note: we should just make a variant of meetbot for this I suggest to start first with detailing the argument and thesis of the text, then go with the critique if any it could say the time, link to the topic, and maybe show who is moderating that week Linus Torvalds: “I can’t totally avoid all political issues, but I try my best to minimize them. When I do make a statement, I try to be fairly neutral. Again, that comes from me caring a lot more about the technology than about the politics, and that usually means that my opinions are colored mostly by what I think is the right thing to do technically rather than for some nebulous good” this quote was cited in the essay we studied 2 weeks ago and it inspired me to chose the text good idea HCF thanks for organising these ash, but I have to leave, c-ya's "Do Artifacts Have Politics" is the best short overview I know of that explains the complex interaction between technology and politics/ human organization cya deki Maybe we can use the !topic .. for turns it's good because it summarizes key ideas in Mumford and other thinkers and touches on the sentiment expressed by Linus that technology is something neutral that operates outside of politics this idea has basically come to define technological discourse and is especially important in crypto crypto is an interesting example because it is both expressively political but also tries to use a cloak of amoral/ apolitical narratives as a defensive strategy to come back to the Winner text, the crucial point is he indentifies 2 ways in which politics and technology interact in a complex way which is a losing strategy cos then you're defensive, and intel then spreads rumours to smear you first, political conditions shape technology and technology encodes the political paradigm that it has been created in second, technology creates politics by enforcing certain kinds of human organization history is shaped by human will and action, but that will and action is within the framework of narratives, paradigms and ideologies so technology has a dual nature where it both expresses a prior politics and creates or activates a new one i think Winners text is a good framework for analyzies these different aspects of the relation between technology and politics draoi: It's like a feedback loop ash: care to elaborate? HCF: i have some more thoughts to share but would like to hear your response to the text first It's not a linear causation, it's a circular causation ty draoi I have a lot of thoughts but maybe I'll just pick one strand to go off of so I don't take too much time I guess one theme I found interesting is what I'll call "Occupying the Neutral" The 'tech is neutral' reminds of other DarkFi team thought about the 'privacy is normal' memeplex Why do people make the rhetorical move toward normality/neutrality? It grants a position of strength our culture puts a big premium on objectivity and this is a way to claim that one is being objective and hence reasonable. opponents are derided as antiprogress or superstitious as the text mentions this also reminds me of de Beavoir. she has some thought about how masculinity occupies both the 'positive' and the 'neutral' which then makes women as something aberrant/emotional/lesser etc. the normality position is a luxury afforded for elite establishment types who benefit from the status quo, but it is not a populist position and ties into Ocalan's critiques of logical positivism too, I think there's also the rhetoric of "autonomous software" which is connected, the idea that if technology is sufficiently decentralized and machine operated it exits the human realm and becomes like natural law so granting strength in some ways - getting money from VCs for example yeah I think 'transcending the human' is a whole other can of worms and also doesn't hold up for example political strategies: sophistry, using the levers of intel agencies and mainstream media, vs guerilla campaigns, populism, rallying the mob I like that the text forcefully states that technology contains the result of human decisions and goes on to shape them. it seems obviously true to me HCF: i like the point about superstition vs reason there is refence to removing 'hierarchy' by bringing in technology, which misses the point, it doesnt remove hierarchry, it just adds an extra step yeah technology is actually very superstitious in many ways. I'd recommend people look into Techgnosis by Erik Davis for thoughts on this when people tell me 'tech is neutral' I always think about an execution device like an electric chair it's very difficult to make the argument that this is neutral i read a text recently where it spoke about scientific positivism emerging from the witch trials, and basically said a Truce was drawn up between the Church and the emerging world of science that said if scientists promise to leave spiritual matters to the Church then they won't be burned at the stake now it feels like crypto is being punished for violating the Truce Techgnosis sounds really cool haha hm do you think crypto has much to say about spirital matters though? I think AI, for most, raises spiritual topics more often than does crypto i guess i use politics/ spirituality/ morality as terms interchangeable techgnosis is super fun. he also comes from a tradition of writing magazine articles so his writing is punchy and readable ah ok *interchangeably then yeah I'm with you I guess I was thinking metaphysics moreso than morality but I see what you mean it's interesting how in the tornado cash case, they were arguing that the technology is neutral and automomous, but the court called BS and said it's a political technology that has designed with the express aim of given absolute anonymity so it feels like this defensive posture is failing/ falling apart did the court say it's political? i didn't realize that pretty much in the recent texts that came out yday oh i heard similar about the silk road apparently the judge gave a detailed critique of the claim it reduces violence worth a read, tangental to the Winner text but relates to this idea of crypto being punished for being expressly political that case is interesting because they also alledgedly controlled the front-end UI and I think that ended up hurting them saying it reduces street violence, but the real violence occurs at the highest level between cartels and silk road therefore increases violence ash: about the feedback loop, i think it's kind of a open spiral rather that a fixed loop, given the social effects technology produces can be unpredictable was interesting cos then journalists were swyed by that argument and started shilling the counter-narrative Loved the neutrality point, that is, neutrality rethoric is used as a means to hide power and politics. Remembered a text that I read from Nancy Frazer, that the idea of citizenship and public affairs can serve as a means to hide class differences between people, and dismiss any reivindication with anwser: "Well are all equal". agree draoi: https://x.com/L0laL33tz/status/1790385855556698448 -> analysis of tornado cash (end of defensive neutrality) (unfortunately can't find a breakdown that's not on twitter) "Well, we all are equal"* ash also the boundaries of citizenship are a huge factor in that. depending on what time period and place you're talking about, that excludes immigrants, slaves, women, people who do not own land, people of the wrong race, indigenous people, and so on Winner: "It is characteristic of societies based on large, complex technological systems, however, that moral reasons other than those of practical necessity appear increasingly obsolete, "idealistic," and irrelevant. Whatever claims one may wish to make on behalf of liberty, justice, or equality can be immediately neutralized when confronted with arguments to the effect: "Fine, but that's no way to run a railroad" (or steel mill, or airline, or communications system, and so on)." That's right. I think that the observation apply to the modern times mostly. In the past things as humans rights or dignity didn't existed. the neutrality argument is terrible because it's a) morally bankrupt b) blind to its own paradigm a lot of tech ppl today (incl. philosophical types) will say that technology is inevitable and you can't stop surveillance dystopia etc this is such lazy thinking well it's that sort of capitalist realism thing or whatever it's called. mark fisher's thing basically that it's very difficult to imagine a non-capitalist world which is also a highly technical world i like this quote from frieren above: "history is shaped by human will and action, but that will and action is within the framework of narratives, paradigms and ideologies". saying that technology is apolitical is being totally resigned to the paradigm and basically giving up on the future/ our ability to change the paradigm what about the soviet union, they were pretty good in tech and so people think it's a straight arrow that's inevitable. I think that's the root of a lot of the capitalist flavors of accelerationism bulgaria was strong too in fact most tech progress like semiconductors was driven by large scale coordinated action, often with state involvement fair I guess I would think that capitalism entails complicated technology, but not necessarily the inverse (not arguing for states) i think it also comes down to the question of free will and agency and whether ppl believe they can shape the world or if they think it's all mechanistically preordained. some of accelerationism is hypersitional, i.e. you can hack the future, other strands believe the future is hacking us yeah good point my feeling is that most people fall into the fatalistic mode rather than the hyperstitional mode. but curious to know if others disagree I would say most people I talk to feel very little agency. instead they are caught in many compromises or just try to sort of forget the present and future yeah i think fatalistic mode is v characteristic of our times yeah, it's sad one of the reasons I like DarkFi so much is that it is positing an alternative way. it has an overall generative tone ++ contrast this with rhetoric around climate change, something I think is very important. however almost all of the discourse is apocalyptic and I worry that's a fatal error because for most people I think that has a depressive effect rather than a motivating one "why bother?" it's true and so they move into hedonism or another kind of fatalistic response it's true as fuck it's weird how people are psyoped by false ideologies agree, feels v fatalistic, but it seems to be a manufactured sense of 'end times' there was a guy telling crypto people you can't change anything, it's all a wet dream for nerds and everybody was nodding in agreement honestly couldn't believe people thought this dumbass was wise but it's true, people copycat and that's how intel agencies psyop the people like the satanic rituals in ireland and i think thats very much a sympton of pod life people continued it long after the agencies stopped. they just had to give the initial push it became self fulfilling idk if it's manufactured exactly. a lot of these threats are really grave. but if your goal is to fight that, then I think fatalism or apocalyptic rhetoric is a tactical mistake i have a suspicion the attacks on crypto are largely manufactured rn a lot of the dislike doesn't seem genuine Can I share a family refection about this? It is almost synchronous with the feeling here go ahead ash yep there are real threats, but the direct effect they have over your life are magnified to be much larger than they really are to you honestly i wouldn't have said so a week ago, but it's so weird seeing the last 2 andy greenberg interviews where he's flipped - he's hardocre shilling chainanalysis - says crypto cannot be anonymous - says hard crimes / bad things, ross did violence .etc - lastly heavily implied bitcoin is an NSA op This individualism that is pervasing the minds of people (i don't want to take responsability with this), which is being manifested as apathy, fatalism, conformity, powerless is a symptom of a sick society he didn't state the last thing, but he kept going on about how satoshi is anon to all these schizos so hearing that made me veeery suspicious they got him, or at least he's a useful tool of the agencies the 2nd point is an outright lie and misinfo ash: what you wrote reminds me of Ocalan does anyone have a suggested reading for the next meet? And in principle it shows that people have been taught to be slaves, our "freedoms" is false one and in reality people are within a subyugation framework that is so subtle that they can't see it. yes I think when people lack a sense of meaning or feel incapable of acting in a way that is meaningful for them, it results in a very literal sickness In the school of my brother there were cases of cyber bullying and robbery, and the parents are activating the protocols, suggesting to put camers, even locks on students lockers. But no one wan't to realize that they are part of the problem SIN: as you said tho the overton window has shifted the elites have overplayed the sophistry card and now it's backfiring on them unfortunately charlatans have taken the reigns draoi I will try to think of ideas. nothing is coming to mind immediately for something that is online and short influencers on twitter use the language of 'radicalism' or 'populism' to get elected or gain mindshare, just sprinkle some comments about jews .etc Their indifference is a form of apolitical attitude that is creating this situation, where at we have to do is stop the school and talk this violence until and take collective responsability its become the standard playbook now to be "based" And my medicine to this problem to myself i have found it is on the root of anarchism with this question In essence we are free beings, what is the power of freedom? Take a moment to recognize your liberty please and awnser the question i read will to power recently and it's an amazingly rich and provocative text, one of the things nietzsche says repeatedly is to stop condemning the world, but to celebrate and affirm it in all its shadows and complexity. he complains about the priests with moral principles who condemn the immorality of the world and want to create a new world. to truly affirm and celebrate the world we must overcome it, and this is the essence of freedom i have a proposed text if no one else does but better someone else leads the next meet if poss let's wrap up i would propose this text just cos it's on the same theme but weirdly i've never read it: https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/papers/moral-fn.pdf if I can make the meeting, I don't mind taking on the moderating role for the text draoi and propose to meet again on the 29th at 14.00 UTC, and to keep to the same day/ time from now one (wednesday every 2 weeks at 14.00 UTC) It would be good to examine the question of liberty and power in a small session? It's key to this problem. i suggest ash: if you have a text on this please share, otherwise Ocalan's vol 3 reflects a lot on this gtg : gm thanks everyone for coming o/ thanks everyone, this was really nice : hey We just need the question : Thank you for sharing article. Found it relevant to DarkFi and has the potential to serve as a framework for discussing how we can address the political and ethical implications of its use, aiding responsible integration into society. In addition, the article raises considerations that could be beneficial for the project to examine further. As socrates proceed always : Below is a list of questions inspired by the article for further exploration: : https://codeberg.org/calm/share/src/branch/master/do-artifacts-have-politics.md : oh nice tysm calm academic text is a help, but no necessary sure if you want ash we can do that next session : nice calm Ty friends, is very important to take conscioussness of our liberty : HCF, draoi: thank you Since it is just a question, the only job here is to make an introspective work... a spiritual work in some sense. In that sense, since is just a question, maybe we can do the meeting next week. Then move onto text as normally. ok thank you glhf all o/ u2 frieren : calm: maybe you saw we just finished the meeting over in ircd #philosophy Ty all : i suggest to read over these points and have them inform the discussion in 2 weeks, which ash will moderate on freedom and power : (i mean calm's points) great discussion all If all agree, it would be awesome : draoi: unfortunately, was not able to join until now, will keep the questions in repo in case anybody is interested, thank you again for sharing article, found it insightful : <3 Yeah, great session draoi, I think that we are touching the deep thing Fatalism, apathy, conformity, "realism", apolitical are manifestations of the same problem that we all noticing in the wolrd ty bye : thank you everyone just scrolled through the conversation. Well done everyone. Very interesting. : join #dev : https://x.com/peter_szilagyi/status/1791088531164570012 : wow amazing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIkay6YiIhs : > “The End of Everything,” with Victor Davis Hanson | Uncommon Knowledge : isn't it interesting how states compete zero sum for power and thereby increase wars : nighteous: states monopolize power and resources at the expense of society : without society, the state takes over the responsibility of things like welfare (in the UK people call this the "nanny state") : to have a strong society, requires a strong moral framework where people hold each other accountable : but then the degenerate form of this is where everybody is forced to be the same : it can only work when there's a philosopher class and the society provides spaces for artisans, scientists, ... anybody doing public works (like free software) in a way Switzerland has a stronger mentorship culture than many other countries thanks to the importance of apprenticeship : in ancient greece this was the academy (and ancient temples, libraries .etc). the modern form of this is supposed to be the university, but it's become an industry in itself instead of stuffing young adults in universities to essentially party probably a product of their decentralized approach too : some argue it's a consequence of large complex modern world but i disagree : it's mainly economic: the capitalist modernity paradigm we live in emphasizes accumulation as economic gain. this leads to all the stuff you talked about like parents forcing their kids to "gain prestige" (by making money, not doing right things) : this said prestige is not the kids well being like I mentioned, it is for them to show off. : note i'm not saying profit is wrong or anything like that, it's a critique of the nation-state paradigm where central banks create fiat money that is inflated and put into the finance casino : it's interesting because the romans believed affluence made societies lazy and vulnerable. the early rulers lived austere lives as a matter of principle. some even argued that carthage should be allowed to exist, so rome would be kept in check. : likewise old america believed competition was good, it made everyone better. modern america abuses its power to protect its financial monopoly. it's interesting to note that western europe is producing less and less engineers, why do you think that is same for the US actually grass is always greener but in a way i wished i went the hard science route : profit is not wrong indeed. taking my example, I have always mentioned that sustainability (which is done via profit) over anything. Maslow's theory best explains how I feel about anything. first its get the basic and psychological needs achieved, and then self fulfillment needs are to be addressed. But in the Indian Society, they do not care about self fulfillment needs. Or even psychological : ones. It is so confusing. It is like kids are "assets" only and there seems to be this hierarchial thing going on where you get to place your kid into the section based on what they do? Not via profit but the company they work in? Startups are frowned upon... and bigger companies paying you peanuts somehow gets you a better position in this hierarchy? beyond the question of "economic imperative", if you let kids do whatever without guidance they just end up in queer studies : also I speak from experience, the competition here is not money, it is to "look" better. (can say by experience cause I was forced to leave 2 really good offers). there's a strong cultural divide with how kids' future is perceived between the East and West where are you from nighteous oh indi a : west: strong state, everybody is an individual competing zerosum against one another i don't think individualism is a product of the state : east: weak state, everybody is collective and forced to follow the collective will : accountablity is non-existant here, people blame others only so that is that. You are forced to be the same cause hey, if you follow the same footsteps then you will be the same (bullshit this is) but it's definetely a way for the state to take over more easily : have you heard of shame vs guilt? insightful divide yes : thats right, east is weak, everybody is "pseudo-collecive". taking the example of "always have a home at your relatives", they do this because they will be shamed otherwise and if they do it then they get the "looking good points" : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt%E2%80%93shame%E2%80%93fear_spectrum_of_cultures : shame vs guilt: I'd say shame is when others shame you for something, whilst guilt is when you feel guilty for doing something? (I suppose?) guilt is internalized faustian my god, apologies I got very invested in typing at darkirc that I didn't check the messages here (you should join darkirc :D) you don't behave well because others are around but because of a "self" imposed pressure lmao i was wondering if my messages were being ported to darkirc or not actually felt like they weren't omg embarrassing : the west is a guilt culture where sin is internalized, which comes from christianity hahahaha no no those aren't being ported to darkirc : the east is a shame culture- people steal and backstab, but what matters is your perception in public ("saving face") : The guilt worldview focuses on law and punishment. The shame–honor worldview seeks an "honor balance" and can lead to revenge dynamics. faustian: hard science even in India doesn't happen at all. The engineers just have a degree and mugged up to pass the exams to get that same degree. Or paid for it. Though there are always some good apples in a pile of rotten ones and since India has a huge population of engineers getting pushed out, there are alot of good engineers as well. They are the ones who understand what and who : they can both be oppressive in different ways engineers are. Not just some webdev kiddy who thinks it is too late to learn something new : the problem with collective cultures is groupthink: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink : ah yes definitely, the collective mindset then will come from shame culture in the east faustian, I would say that kids having guidance is good, but not controlling to do what you think is good. there is a big difference between the two indeed : (reading the links you sent) i'll try to join darkirc btw wasn't sure of its status : nw sry to harass you lol ^^ : about rome's decline into authoritarianism after is become monetised: https://youtu.be/IKuVO4JaqBY?t=381 : they began importing a lot of slaves which led to slave revolts, fragmenting the social order faustian, sure I'll stop replying over here once you join darkirc :D : before the working class provided agricultural independence, but then to accumulate profit they were drafted into the army. : people were treated like chattel and lost all commitment towards the state : the republic was weak which allowed dictators like caesar to take power oh i missed this convo : harass me? how O,O no worries nothing like that happened lol faustian: loads of people go into STEM now, but they have no philosophy or art to what they do. they are cutthroat mercenaries looking for profit : oh guess what, with some money, people love to get treated as chattel nowadays. even without money, alot of them cannot see that they are being treated as chattels. Though I guess good for the state? they get to have a strong control over the mob faustian: STEM in general is in decline, but this is a consequence of a society which has lost vitality, nothing specific to sciences many physicists end up working on wall street in finance because the pay is much much higher than academia or industry that says a lot about what we value as a society it's definitely non-optimal, and it's weird this financial scam of the central bank inflating the money supply and then giving it to wall street so we have a society where people have no loyalty or values, people are mercenary. as a consequence there's lack of meaning or sense of purpose, and a general malaise in the arts, sciences, .etc : the state centralizes power. states compete against each other zerosum for power. states become strong by harvesting the economic resources of society. this impoverishes society and its peoples. for example: strong military industry complex of the soviet union made society very poor : here's another example: cortez destroyed the aztecs with a small force of spaniards because he was able to rally a huge numbers from surrounding tribes who hated the aztecs. the aztecs were enslaving everybody, and this became their enemy. : example 2: europe today imports refugees in record numbers as economic workers to maintain the GDP (at the expense of society) : example 3: the library of alexandria was despised by the people because scientists never applied their knowledge to alleviate the suffering of society. for example they had steam power, electricity, computers, .etc but they just made toys to amuse kings. they never once thought to make tools for farming or so on. when christianity took over, they burnt the library down and murdered the : scientists. : today you have literal children employed in silicon valley or US universities who know nothing of the world, come from rich families, and this makes the STEM elite. they live in airbnbs, order ubereats and have cleaners looking after them. : they have servants looking after them. it's a similar situation to the library of alexandria : and they work on bullshit that doesn't help society : their dream is to be like steve jobs or whatever : oh, do you mean *cough cough* "tier 1 indian private university students"? /s Most of them are taken in with "donations". : Steve Jobs my ass, they could never be close to him. Almost all of them try to copy and fail so bad but have their parent's money/power to support them (statement based on observation) : also yes, they are either example 3 or just nothing techhnically. They dont even amuse kings (upper management) they are ready to lick boots for all what I know. There ofcourse are outliers and I am not generalizing them into this category : apologies for any heated statements if any seems to be bothersome : when you look at the last centuries, we used to respect people who made great works like scientists, philosophers and so on : today people are into celebrities, and now influencers lol : we celebrate the actor rather than the writer. in ancient greece, acting was looked down upon as a profession : "ohh this influencer made this reel of committing a crime and got 10k views, I so wanna be like them" lol idk what to say : people dont even care about writers any more from what i have seen. Those who write books, sure yes, but the writers behind a movie/or visual thing hey all, really interesting discussion! Was following on telegram, couldn't participate because I was at the gym what did you do in the gym? frieren: it was leg day, although usually do chest on Monday but this program I'm following has changed it nice hypertrophy stuff dont skip legs lol lol ofc as the saying goes 'never skip leg day' as painful as it is how much do you squat? I'm 130kg that's impressive, I actually haven't done any squats in a while coz this program focuses more on leg press/hack squat. But last time I did squats it was around 110kg ah niice actually don't like squats, always worried the bar will crush me i use the safety in the rack damn you all got some good strength I can only run, that too only from my problems lol lol fair, running is good I used to swim a lot same, swimming is nice. I try to do a mix of slow and HIIT running (jokes apart, last I did was a 50 kg 2 sets of 12 reps each on the leg extension machine but its been 2 months since then and I haven't done any physical activity) my brain is sharper when i exercise I prefer running sprints. Like outbursts of speed, though it makes it really difficult to control my speed when running. Either a dash or I cannot run two steps deki: if you're into supplements https://agorism.dev/supp.html yeah sprinting is nice. recently I got a polar h10, and made my own app to monitor heart rate: https://github.com/narodnik/pump/tree/master/ecgapp oh nice, thanks. I already take boron and zinc, creatine too. Need to get back on vit d but been meaning to get a proper regimen i think omega 3 is the most important never actually included that, will buy some tomorrow also i charted my diet's micros, and it was lacking K2, so the supplement was good ok just beware that most omega 3 is bad for you cos it's rancid, you need to find a good brand like thorne oh I see, I'll have a look if we have that brand here you can find good brands on reddit someone said they take ashwaganda, I tried that for a while last year and found it made me too relaxed/mellow I need to operate with a slight level of anxiety lol yeah i do it for sleep only but a bit wary of it you should try glycine. start by megadosing 20g and see if it has any affect on you i get crazy crazy dreams oh wow, never tried glycine either then you can reduce to 6g yeah it's important for health, we should get 12g but we only get 6g from dietary sources this website is really good https://examine.com/supplements/glycine/ sweet thanks, never thought I'd be getting health advice here, alongside dev stuff lol lol and history discussions even better, my favourite subject when I was in high school (well ancient history) I chose it over the IT subject we had, difficult decision btw turmeric/cumin and mint lower testosterone serious? Damn, I used to take turmeric but stopped yeah that's why they say turmeric is "anti-inflammatory" far out, noted have you ever tried NAC? no, what's that? oh interesting, another amino acid https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Acetylcarnosine&useskin=vector yeah was gonna say, has multiple benefits, some claim there's more but the studies vary did you ever try those squat plugs found it rly helped my technique i look forward to leg down now *leg day I like it too now, mainly because I like the leg press btw glycine is meant to be in powder form? And is L-Glycine the same thing? yep powder. idk about l-glycine, i think so tnx